Dublin Pride ends media partnership with RTE over Liveline's Gender Identity discussion
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I believe you're being unfair on oej to be honest.
Next time I make a balls up in work, potentially costing millions, I'm going to direct them to the metaphysical reality of the situation. Even though I've no idea of what that means, I think I'll be safe.
Actually I'll probably get a promotion as I've closed the gap in their procedures and saved them multiples of what I cost them.
A suitable pay increase as well so I can buy my holiday home in atlantis. Feckin genius!
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“Tell me what you do for a living without telling me what you do for a living”
You’ve practically described a typical work day for me 😂
Ahh no, all ‘metaphysical’ basically refers to is the things which exist outside of the physical world. Gender isn’t something we can see, but we can sense it, we can perceive it. We can see sex, and that’s what @eskimohunt refers to as “biological reality”.
I understand what he means, but it ignores the fact that gender does exist, and if it were ever necessary to provide evidence for the idea, then the case of David Reimer should be sufficient -
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
John Money’s hypothesis was that gender having a biological basis means it could be manipulated, altered, changed. His hypothesis was not borne out by his experiments. Gender identity cannot be manipulated, changed or altered. It’s why anyone who isn’t transgender isn’t going to become transgender as a consequence of listening to Beyoncé or, y’know, as @AllForIt suggested earlier - doing things that aren’t a man thing to do, like becoming pregnant.
Because I understood what @AllForIt meant, I wasn’t going to be nitpicky and point out that he’s basically referring to stereotypes - associating pregnancy with women, and on that basis questioning why, if someone is male, why are they becoming pregnant, it doesn’t make any sense. He’s basically saying men aren’t supposed to get pregnant, they’re supposed to be doing man things, like… not getting pregnant, I guess 😂
’Snot reality though, and it’s something which science and medicine have been dealing with for decades. The way the law dealt with it in most countries was to require people who are transgender, if they wished to avail of treatment, they must first undergo mandatory sterilisation which would render them incapable of reproducing and having children. This led to people who are transgender hiding their identity and trying to conform to social expectations based on their sex, and they were able to have families and children as long as they remained in the closet and hid the fact that they are transgender.
Uterine transplants are one option that’s being explored, but it’s bleeding edge medicine and science, and it presents considerable ethical issues meaning it is still highly controversial -
Uterine transplantation, or UTx, is currently in its infancy and is not yet publicly available. As of 2019, in cisgender women, more than 42 UTx procedures had been performed, with 12 live births resulting from the transplanted uteruses as of publication. The International Society of Uterine Transplantation (ISUTx) was established internationally in 2016, with 70 clinical doctors and scientists, and currently has 140 intercontinental delegates. Its goal is to, "through scientific innovations, advance medical care in the field of uterus transplantation."
In 2012, McGill University published the "Montreal Criteria for the Ethical Feasibility of Uterine Transplantation", a proposed set of criteria for carrying out uterine transplants, in Transplant International. Under these criteria, only a cisgender woman could ethically be considered a transplant recipient. The exclusion of trans women from candidacy may lack justification.
In addition, if trans women wish to conceive with a biological male partner, they face the same issues that cisgender gay couples have in creating a zygote.
Only 3% of transgender people take efforts to preserve their fertility in transition 51% of trans women express regrets for not preserving their fertility, and 97% of transgender adults believe it should be discussed before transition.
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Im in actual awe of your posting style.
I'd be hung, drawn an quatered if I sent a message of that length to senior management. What's you secret?
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Doubt it, but wouldn't be surprised.
Bore the minions with junk talk and have them zone out after a couple of sentences.
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On a phone td?
Can’t use the desktop site, it’s a mess, but when I’m not having discussions on Boards, I like to give my thumbs a good workout with a set of knitting needles and a ball of wool.
Not a man thing to do, apparently, that’s why I keep it a secret 😬 Hard bastards don’t knit like, nooo sireee…
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To be fair, what he wrote would take me roughly 3 minutes to write (with the copy/pasting of paragraphs from external sources). I honestly don't see why people think writing long posts is time consuming or difficult, considering just how much time we spend on computers.
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Jaysus. You must be as pissed as I was last night.
Actually, speaking of knitting, I think home economics should be compulsory for kids in school.
I just learned to sow stuff and I'm fierce proud of myself(may need a tetanus shot).
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This story shouldn't be going away. We need people like the trolls on this thread to keep going on TV and embarrassing themselves, insulting women etc. so everyone can see what they are.
We also need to know the details of this "partnership". Did RTE give editorial oversight to an outside advocacy group without disclaimers? How much "positive" content was to be produced? What other groups or companies do they have such arrangements with?
Really my favourite laugh from this whole story is that I think it's pretty hard to argue that RTE haven't been pushing a "gay agenda" for the last 3 years since they've literally come out and admitted such. 🤣
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As the public service broadcaster, RTE should have an obligation to disclose the nature of the agreement.
It almost sounds as if it was framed in a way that gave Dublin Pride some sort of control over how RTE should conduct themselves re: LGBT issues, particularly the latter letter of the acronym.
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The Left are arguing a woman's place is just in the home but in her place and she better not complain.
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I think we all know the answer to this question but its forbidden to mention it
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Actually I think this hugely disappointing. Not least because I've already made a large vat of popcorn that I'll have to throw out now.
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The RTE-Dublin Pride (TENI & BelongTo in reality) discussion should be made public and transparent not buried by the usual opaqueness.
The shadows and private meetings must stop especially when it's a supposedly balanced national public service there to serve the whole of the public.
The issue is never the issue; the issue is always the revolution.
The Entryism process: 1) Demand access; 2) Demand accommodation; 3) Demand a seat at the table; 4) Demand to run the table; 5) Demand to run the institution; 6) Run the institution to produce more activists and policy until they run it into the ground.
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Might be all for the best.
It's a time for cool heads.
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I think it's only best for the Dublin Pride
committeeNGO who are types who don't want trans issues discussed in any circumstance and on reflection have decided they're tactically better off killing this controversy off as soon as possible.1 -
This story shouldn't be going away. We need people like the trolls on this thread to keep going on TV and embarrassing themselves, insulting women etc. so everyone can see what they are.
I'm not sure if the state would have had a representative at the hearing, but I would have been interested to know what their reasoning for using gender inclusive language is, specifically the way they decided to word it and if it matched what OEJ said on that.
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@AllForIt you’re gonna need a bigger bucket of popcorn, looks like there was a backstory to this that fuelled the “debate” on RTE -
This was all kicked off by a protest at the National Women’s Council AGM last Thursday week. A group called The Countess had protested outside and later told Joe Duffy they had been denied entry to the meeting.
As it happens, I was inside that earlier part of that meeting, chairing a discussion on what we might expect in any debate ahead of the “woman in the home” referendum, due to be held soon.
Part of the Liveline discussion centred around the word women being removed, through amendments, from the Maternity Protection Act 1994. It is being amended to ensure it extends certain rights that already exist to trans people. In April, the Government approved the drafting of a Work Life Balance Provisions Bill. As part of that, apparently, “legislative anomalies” that had been identified in other Acts needed to be addressed.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40897046.html
I’m not surprised the countess group were denied entry to a meeting of the NWCI when they publish articles like this about one of the members on the board of the NWCI -
To celebrate International Women’s Day 2022, Wicklow Library hosted an event with Sara Phillips, Chair of TENI, to speak about “topics that affect transgender women in terms of inclusion”. Sara Phillips was born male and fathered three children before starting to transition in the mid 2000s. Phillips has also been on the board of the NWCI (National Women’s Council of Ireland) since 2020.
https://thecountess.ie/wicklow-goes-woke-and-falls-asleep-at-the-wheel/
Remember that letter?
https://gcn.ie/irish-lgbtq-community-stand-irishsolidarit-transphobia-trans-day-remembrance/
This was NCWI’s statement released a few days ago -
NWC statement on inclusive language
Published: Wednesday, June 15, 2022
We condemn the ongoing misrepresentation of our position on the use of the word ‘woman’ in legislation and policy. We believe the attempts to misrepresent our position on this are a deliberate attempt to create a false and harmful division between women’s and trans rights.
NWC has always advocated for the word ‘woman’ or ‘women’ to be retained or included in policy and legislation. In addition, we have advocated for additional language to be included to ensure public documents are inclusive as possible. For example, in the case of cervical check, NWC, with our members, advocated for the inclusion of 'women, transgender men, intersex and non-binary people with a cervix'.
https://www.nwci.ie/learn/article/nwc_statement_on_inclusive_language
Also according to the author of that article in the Examiner, there’s a referendum due to be held soon. There isn’t; it’s been put off twice already, with no date set in the future -
The Minister said he was “unclear” as to how his department and the committee might engage on wording. He said at this stage any referendum “is potential” and that no date had been set, though he wanted one to be held next year.
Never mind popcorn, we might need handbags if this keeps up… 🙄
”Blend in, blend in!” 😂
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I don't think it is time for cool heads.
First, this is a wonderful opportunity to highlight the unreasonable nature of modern activism, and the perspective, as eternal victims, that these groups can do no wrong, and behave any way they please without repercussions. The LGBTQ community spokespeople really need to learn a few lessons, and remember that bullying is no way to change the "hearts and minds" of those in society. Especially, those connected with the Trans aspect. They really need to learn a few lessons in playing nice.. a few steps back towards the tactics/techniques that brought homosexuality into general acceptance in Irish society.
Secondly, though, is for RTE.. to step up and represent the Irish public in such situations as these. To stop most of this leftist nonsense, and virtue signalling that is so popular with the agendas pushed by RTE. That for RTE to appreciate that these minority or disadvantaged groups should be examined, criticised, and considered in a calm logical manner, rather than merely highlighting all the perceived positives, and downplaying (or outright ignoring) the negatives. It would also be good for RTE to appreciate that these groups they've championed for years could turn on them at any time...
No. This situation has provided a great opportunity to raise into the spotlight one of the most sensitive topics in Irish society, one that is feared to be addressed properly in a very public manner, and one that should be taken apart due to the long-term consequences on both the individuals concerned, and society in general.
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Yea the backstory is all fascinating, but the fact is that the transgender issues have basically never been made prominent in Irish media, so I'm not surprised that bubble burst eventually. In a messy way yes, but that's what happens when something bursts.
I agree with @[Deleted User] when he said earlier that the genie is out of the bottle as far as trans issues are concerned in Ireland. It's been waiting to happen for a long time. Boom.
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The biggest worry for me, completely aside from trans issues, is the way any NGO feels entitled to control out state media broadcaster.
I mean, who the hell do these people think they are.
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and then attempt to discredit them…
unfortunately they underestimated the backbone of RTE as well as the intelligence of the general public… who are seeing right through them and what they are up to. An OG of biblical proportions… unlikely to live it down for a while at least.
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I have, and there’s plenty of evidence exists to support the view that within the context of Irish law, people who identify as male are becoming pregnant and giving birth, and the logical extension of that reality is that they can only be regarded as the biological fathers of their own children. These people are entitled to the same protection from discrimination in Irish law as everyone else, and that’s what the proposed legislation aims to do. It’s introduction into Irish law doesn’t require your consent.
I have to respond to this though I know it's off topic.
There is no logical extension that says that women who identify as men who give birth must be referenced/regarded as the father of their child.
It's completely illogical, not logical.
When it comes to 'what is a mother' the term mother distinctly refers to the person that gave birth to the child, not what the person who gave birth identifies as in terms of gender.
So transgender men have to accept that even if they are given legal recognition of the gender they prefer, that guarantee should not extend to changing their status as either a mother a father.
A father is the person impregnated a woman. A woman in the person who gave birth to the child. Those terms farther and mother have nothing under the sun to do with gender identity.
Now the psychology part again;
Why is it that Freddy McConnell would have a problem with that? Why is it he want's to be regarded as the farther rather than the mother which he is. It's because he's dead set on mimicking "cisgender normativity". In other words he won't accept he's transgender, but is doing everything he can, especially on a social level, to mimic a real man. He can't cope being regarded as a mother because that completely blows away his fantasy of being regarded as a born man, which he is not or ever will be.
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I dunno... RTE have never been the most independent or free thinking media agency. Back in the day, they supported the RCC.. censoring anything that was negative... waiting until the cat was completely out of the bag before piling on them. Then, there was/is their sucking up to our political parties.. sure they handle the small stories, but there's rarely any serious debate (surface superficial questioning or simply bad interviewing) about important matters, and worse yet, once the story leaves the public view, they don't return to it. And so, they help the politicians to bury negative press by moving ever on to other matters. It's the same with immigration.. they promote stories which encourage a warm glowing feeling, but don't return to those stories when the participants do "bad things".. That's all connected with the censorship mentality, and it all goes back to both the Church and the politics of this country.
The NGOs (essentially lobby groups) are tied very closely to our political parties... and so, I'd say the NGOs feel they have such power, because it was bestowed on them by various governments. It's reflected in the lack of criticism or unbiased investigations instigated by our politicians towards social issues covered by the NGOs.. which would be part of their jobs. To represent the concerns of the population. Look at the general lack of criticism by anyone of either Traveller culture, or the NGOs responsible for representing them. It's simply shocking the double standards, hypocrisy, and outright lies that have been allowed to continue, and continue with the general approval of the politicians and RTE.
Yeah.. I dunno.. I'd say the NGOs are acting in tandem with a variety of organisations/groups who have been given approval to do whatever they wished for years. The NGOs aren't acting in any way different than they did before. It's just that this one incident backfired.. but it could easily have gone the other way too.
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unlikely to live it down for a while at least.
I give it one, at most two months, before it's mostly forgotten, and everyone moves on. I'm sceptical of the idea that such mistakes will have any impact without repeated reinforcement, which would require RTE dedicating time to doing just that. I don't see that happening though.
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That suggest's RTE is an 'empty mind' waiting to be programmed by whomever wants to control it for their own interests.
I dunno myself and it begs the question 'what is a state media anyway'. And 'should we have one at all'.
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So transgender men have to accept that even if they are given legal recognition of the gender they prefer, that guarantee should not extend to changing their status as either a mother a father.
They don’t have to accept that though, any more than anyone else has to just accept anything, especially when it’s a matter of legal recognition by the State. The State recognises for example that in a heterosexual married couple, the father is assumed to be the father of all their children, even though he may have no biological relationship with his children. Adoptive parents are legally recognised as the parents of their children even though a biological relationship with their children may or may not exist.
In Ireland, when the Children and Family Relationships Act was enacted in 2015, parts of it were only commenced recently which gave legal recognition to lesbian parents of their own children. Before then, in some couples, they would have to apply to adopt their own children, and this is still the case in other countries -
Surrogacy is still unregulated in Ireland, and this has all sorts of legal consequences for the children of parents who have no biological relationship with their children.
The logic of recognising a person who is transgender as a man in Irish law, means that recognition should extend to recognise a man as the father of their children. A biological relationship is not a requirement of legal recognition. Within the context of the relationship between children and their parents who are transgender, the child will know their parents as either their mother or their father, whereas currently Irish law does not recognise parents who are transgender as either the mother or the father of their own children, and therefore their children do not have the same rights as the children of other couples.
Another quirk of Irish law which wasn’t addressed in the Children and Family Relationships Act is that under Irish law, the Family is only recognised through marriage - if their parents aren’t married, children do not have the same protection in Irish law as the children of married couples, regardless of their parents gender identity or sexual orientation -
It’s nothing to do with anyones fantasies or anything else; it has everything to do with recognising that all children are entitled to equal recognition and protection under Irish law regardless of the gender identity, sexual orientation or marital status of their parents.
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They’re not any more prominent now than they weren’t before; there’s no genies out of bottles or anything else. In real terms the idea of Ireland suddenly waking up and realising that there are people who are transgender, just isn’t going to happen, any more than it doesn’t happen for people who are lesbian, gay or bisexual. They’ve just always been a part of society and people generally go about their business and aren’t thinking about other people’s lives all that much.
That’s why RTE approached Dublin Pride, it didn’t happen the other way round, and Dublin Pride don’t control RTE. Who do Dublin Pride think they are? They’re an organisation that was approached by RTE who wanted to establish a relationship with them, and one of the conditions of that relationship is that RTE would tell their stories.
It’s not the first time RTE have failed to honour their commitment to telling the stories of people who are lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender. It surely must be obvious that if RTE make an agreement with an organisation to educate the public about the lives of people who are lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender, that they would represent those people in a positive light and actually live up to their commitment to tell those people’s stories, as opposed to promoting the narrative that they are people who need to be regarded with suspicion and contempt, which is the way other organisations attempt to portray them, as somehow being a threat to Irish society.
Portraying any group of people in society as a threat to society based upon their characteristics, is just outright lying to people, and it doesn’t educate anyone. It’s an attempt to have people remain ignorant and give those people just cause for their bigotry. In reality however, the fact is that people who are transgender have been participating in Irish society for as long as anyone else, and they still do - it’s just the reality that now, people who are transgender are becoming more visible in Irish society - in primary, secondary and third level education, in sports, in employment, housing and accommodation, etc.
It’s not that society as a whole became any more accepting of the idea, it’s just that people who are transgender are still only a tiny minority in society as a whole, and at an individual level, opinions and support or condemnation, still vary considerably. It’s never been an issue for me, because I rarely encounter the kind of person I regard as an asshole, never mind the idea that it has anything to do with their characteristics. It’s entirely based upon their behaviour.
This idea that assholes are a reflection of the group of people they claim to represent and therefore they will turn people against a whole group, is just nonsense at the same time. That kind of person is a liability to themselves. People who weren’t bigots before, aren’t going to turn into bigots and tar a whole group as being assholes on the basis that they encountered one asshole. That whole idea is predicated upon the idea of ‘respectability politics’, this idea that anyone has to ‘play nice’ with people who treat them like a doormat. Nobody has to accept that kind of behaviour, and that’s why Dublin Pride aren’t obligated to maintain a relationship with RTE, when RTE treats them like a doormat.
This whole sorry episode doesn’t reflect anything on the wider group of people as a whole, even though there were accusations of RTE trying to smooth things over by having a guest on the Brendan O’ Connor show the other day who is transgender. The invitation had been extended well in advance of the shìt-show that was the Joe Duffy show -
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