Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Clegg · 18-06-2022 4:18pm

Whose multi account is this?

Bet he went to the right school.

Dubinusa · 18-06-2022 5:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119220118#Comment_119220118

Joeys?

Shehal · 19-06-2022 9:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119219693#Comment_119219693

It is a minefield but the reality its just one game and Ireland are still a great team that's good enough to win against either team. If Ireland were to win that game you'd arguably make them favourites against any team in the SF bar possibly England, but if Ireland were to knock off France or NZL its hard to imagine Ireland NOT being favourites in the SF against anyone they would likely face.

swiwi_ · 19-06-2022 12:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119218304#Comment_119218304

Moonwalk - he is more like a thirteen from a Kiwi team…?

TRC10 · 19-06-2022 12:03pm

Whitelock a doubt for the series. Josh Lord already ruled out so NZ starting to look light at lock.

They still have Rettalick, Barrett and Vaa'i who are each very good but if they lose anymore they could be in trouble.

Shehal · 19-06-2022 3:44pm

It might secretly be a blessing as to my eyes at least what it looks like NZL really need is some new blood in the SR, its not lacking in quality but it definetly looked to be lacking in energy especially at latter stages of 2022, not a big deal in a normal year like 2022 but in 2023 if NZL are going into a RWC QF in the same boat it could be an issue.

I would seriously be looking at Barrett at SR, NZL are crying out for him in the engine room.

molloyjh · 20-06-2022 10:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119219428#Comment_119219428

Wales. Ha! Good one.

Wales have a piss easy pool but given how poor they look right now they might still struggle to make it to the QF. Even if they do, they then have to face England in the QF. Then their SF opponents, should they make it that far, would be one of France, NZ, SA or ourselves.

Wales are a shambles right now. There is absolutely no way in hell that they are more likely to win the RWC than us. That’s just ridiculous levels of dourness. They’ve just come 5th in the 6Ns a whole 14 points behind us. They lost at home to Italy ffs.

TRC10 · 20-06-2022 11:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119226038#Comment_119226038

They had a very poor 6N yes. But they have a better draw than us and they still have a very good squad. And I'd fancy Wales against England in a RWC knockout game more than I'd fancy us against France or NZ. If it was a 6N or November game it would be different. For all the talk of Welsh rugby being in dire straights, they've won two trophies since we last won one.

Look, are we a better team than Wales? Yes, obviously. But the thing about Wales, is they have a history of delivering performances when it really matters and pulling out results when they shouldn't, they have pedigree. We have a history of doing the exact opposite, we invariably capitulate on the biggest stage. And until we change that, until we actually deliver in the pressure cooker of a do-or-die knockout game, Wales will always been fancied on the biggest stage over us. Doesn't matter how many 6Ns or November games we win.

molloyjh · 20-06-2022 11:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119226109#Comment_119226109

They have a better QF draw than us. Their SF draw is effectively the same as our QF draw. This whole “they have pedigree” is nonsense. They had a far easier draw in 2019 against a French team that were at a very low ebb and were only beginning their rebuild and who lost a man to a red card early in the second half. Wales won by a single point. In 2011 they beat us when Kidney was in the middle of his half back fiasco and simply botched selection for that game.

They are the only 2 times that Wales have made it past the QFs in the pro era. Both times they were led by Gatland and they were in some really good form. In 2011 they were at the start of arguably their absolute peak under Gatland when they went on to win the 6Ns back to back in 2012 and 2013. They had come 4th in 2011 but that was on PD, with France, ourselves and Wales all finishing on 6 points. In 2019 they were coming off the back of a grand slam.

This “pedigree” stuff is intangible, immeasurable and wholly void of context, objectivity or even a sliver of fact. This Welsh team hasn’t got a patch on the side in 2011 or 2019. And we’ve seen clearly that Pivac is not the kind of guy who can get Wales up for games in the way that Gatland was able to. And they sure as hell don’t have any pedigree in terms of winning the RWC. So even if we factored in their “pedigree” of 2 SFs, they were both losing SFs. So unless Wales turn things around in the next 12 months there’s no way they should be even close to the conversation about who might win the RWC, let alone ahead of Ireland.

RichieRich_89 · 20-06-2022 11:47am

Agreed, TRC. I can't see either Wales or Ireland winning it, but Wales at least have pedigree for making the last four. It's unusual to see teams without pedigree do well in cup competitions. Ireland in the World Cup are a bit like those good Glasgow or Ospreys teams of the past in the Heineken Cup. They did well in the league, but never made it past the quarters (if memory serves) in the European Cup. Consequently they were probably never amongst the favourites for the ERC - even if they had just won the league or something.

I will say I like Farrell's mindset and how he's trying to instill mental toughness in his Ireland players. He has a massive job on his hands, though, when you look at how Ireland perform at World Cups.

Shehal · 20-06-2022 12:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119226109#Comment_119226109

Imagine if we backed ourselves to win a RWC if we were in Wales' shoes...delusional would have been the first word spoken.

And no Ireland would have a better shot because in all of this Ireland have to win just 1 very difficult game which they are still very capable of doing, Wales have to win atleast 3 KO games to win a RWC when they haven't shown they are capable of bar one fluke of a 6N...

Ireland's main issue is despite how good we are we have mentally a very weak nation, you know if Wales for instance were in our shoes we'd be backing ourselves to win the RWC regardless of our potential QF draw.

Wales have a history of pulling out results...under Gatland....

Shehal · 20-06-2022 12:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119226229#Comment_119226229

Because we treat the RWC as if its something radically different to a 6N campaign when it really isn't, as a result we are never properly prepared and that has been abundantly clear the last 2 tournament. We keep talking abut focusing on the RWC and planning our squads especially for it but ultimately when it comes down to it what prep was actually done? Both games against Argentina in 15 and NZL in 19 its like we were shell shocked at what they would bring to the table which clearly show's Ireland didn't do their research on either team.

It seems instead of fixing our issues we seem more than happy to sit back and make excuses but the fact is when it comes to KO rugby just like in a boxing match that's the point where we really see who worked the hardest and who was the most prepared and each time of the 8 QF's we looked the least prepared (arguably the exception of France in 2015 but they were against arguably the best ever RWC winning side so this must be judged in context) and instead of fixing the issues we missed the point once again and just blamed the injuries we had and in 2019 with a fully fit squad bar Dan Leavy we made the exact same mistakes proving nothing was learnt in 2019.

Former Former Former · 20-06-2022 12:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119226318#Comment_119226318

Sorry, what?

Ireland only have to win one very difficult game?

awec · 20-06-2022 12:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119226355#Comment_119226355

I am as critical of Ireland's WC performances as anyone else, but the 6N and the WC are very different. RWC is much more difficult to do well in which is part of the reason our record is so appalling.

Shehal · 20-06-2022 12:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119226366#Comment_119226366

Yes... England,Australia,Wales etc would be 50/50 in a SF... The only reason you would back any of those teams to win the RWC at the moment is because they dont have to play France or NZL in a QF...

Shehal · 20-06-2022 12:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119226385#Comment_119226385

The tournaments may be different but the preparation ultimately isn't that's much different, one thing I notice is we as a country seem to hype up the RWC more than anyone else (at least based on the media) and ironically when we get there we **** the bed every time, almost like we've hyped to the point that the players are totally intimidated by the challenge.

'

In 2023 I dont want to hear any excuses, I want to see action. We are 4th in the World (.50 away from 2nd) and have shown what we are capable of the last 12 months. The excuses we make are for tier 2 nations/ band 3 nations, not for a country that wants to perceive itself as a potential winner... yes we have an extremely difficult QF if we get through but there is a way to prepare for a final and what we've shown the last 2 RWC's is actually a disgrace.

molloyjh · 20-06-2022 12:46pm

Just looked back at that 2019 QF vs France. Wales were really poor and got very lucky.

Sloppy ball control from France at a ruck gifted Wales 7 points when the ball popped up to Wainwright who had a simple run in.

Penaud dropped the ball when he should have been able to finish a try scoring opportunity.

France missed 5 from the tee.

Vaamaahina was completely crazy with his elbow to Jake Balls head when France had an attacking maul inside the Welsh 22 which led to the red.

Wales were behind until the 73rd minute when France didn’t control their scrum 5m from their line well enough and possession was ripped. TMO said the ball didn’t go forward but that seemed generous tbh. It looked forward to me.

To have pedigree in something you need to have a history of consistently achieving it. Wales don’t have that in the RWC and 1 of the 2 times they got to the SF in the last 30 years (3 in total) they were very, very fortunate to do so.

Wales absolutely do not have a pedigree of winning knock out games in the RWC.

Dubinusa · 20-06-2022 2:03pm

I doubt that we will be as shockingly dogshit at the world cup as we were in 2019. Our problem is our grouping. Last time out, we had a decent group and were obviously going to make the qf's, despite how bad we were.

2023 is a really tough draw. Not only for us though! France have NZ. We have Scotland and S.A. I think we will make the qf. My hope is we can at the very least be competitive. 2019's loss to N.Z was a disgrace. I can't see us being that awful next year!

We should have the mindset that we will win the world cup. To me, a qf win should not be our pinnacle.

Paul Smeenus · 20-06-2022 2:47pm

Stumbled across this video - some fella doing Uncapped Ireland 15. Interesting choices.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7856RYFUslg

Wycherley / Barron / Oli Jager

Molony / Murray

Prendergast / Marcus Rea / Kendellan

Doak / Healy

Frawley / Farrell

McIlroy / Stewart Moore / Jimmy O'Brien

He makes the point that there are few enough uncapped players - there's quite a few with just a couple of caps.

Dubinusa · 20-06-2022 6:05pm

Oli Jager was born in England? So if he is he could go to the premiership and possibly be called up immediately. He's assured nothing, of course and I imagine he will decide on his options next season. How is he IQ'd?

TRC10 · 20-06-2022 6:34pm

i don't quite get the Oli Jager obsession. I've watched him a few times this season and yeah he's been grand, he'd be a nice addition to the depth chart but I don't think he'd moonwalk into our 23. If he was a loosehead I'd get it, but we have good tightheads. Bealham and O'Toole are good players. Bealham has always been solid for us. He's one of the most skilful props I've seen and has played in two wins over NZ. O'Toole went toe to toe with Kitsoff last week. Marty Moore is there too, he's not the most mobile but he's a rock in the scrum, has great skills and is proven at European level. Then there's guys like Knox, Clarkson, Illo and Aungier coming through.

It's well known that NZ's front row options aren't exactly amazing right now, and yet he can't even get in their extended squads. So why is he good enough for us? Until this season, Ala'alatoa kept him out of the Crusaders team when he was there.

AbusesToilets · 20-06-2022 7:15pm

Wales might not have a pedigree of winning KO games in the WC, but they absolutely have a history of turning up for them. That's something that's eluded us everytime bar Aus in 91, and is truly damning. Our best performance in the Pro era was the 20mins after Fitzgerald came on vs Argentina.

Be happy to see us actually take a cut out of someone for once.

AbusesToilets · 20-06-2022 7:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119228040#Comment_119228040

I'd be looking to tempt Dan Brennan to these parts over Jager

Paul Smeenus · 20-06-2022 7:29pm

It's just that "ooh, he's playing in NZ, he must be brilliant" mentality.

pickarooney · 20-06-2022 9:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119228194#Comment_119228194

Brennan can't make the first XV at a basement level Top 14 club. Last time he started he was dragged off after 30 minutes. He plays exclusively at loosehead these days.

In don't think he's the answer to anything at the moment.

ersatz · 20-06-2022 9:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119228164#Comment_119228164

Yeah, agreed. No matter how poor Wales are you wouldn't bet against them showing up and enjoying the bounce of the ball. Look at their last grand slam ffs. Ireland have never managed to be really bad and win the competition. Wales have done it more than once. They'll go into the World Cup thinking they'll go far while Ireland will be thinking about the 1/4 final monkey which doesn't mean Ireland make it to a semi but I'd say that mentality is easier to achieve with the Welsh team.