Dublin Pride ends media partnership with RTE over Liveline's Gender Identity discussion

BruteStock · 20-06-2022 1:15pm

Common sense and fairness prevailed because there was constant debate over born men competing in womens sports. Debate can produce results and that's why the community wants to cry-bully people into silence 🤫

How Soon Is Now · 20-06-2022 2:56pm

Realistically speaking the more activists etc keep pushing people on trans rights and trying to bully there way out of arguments and into some kind of power position we will start to see how the general public really feel on the matter. I imagine the vast majority of people keep quiet and don't get involved as having an actual opinion on the matter is far too much hassle.

You would get a very different answer if you ask the average person how they feel about the LGB compared to how they feel about the T. The crazies on Twitter are in a tiny minority compared to the general public and the day will eventually come maybe sooner then later when people will actually start saying how they really feel and the ''fear'' will be gone.

20-06-2022 3:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119227179#Comment_119227179

Also, think about how much reading/research that would be needed to understand the complete Trans topic. It's such a sprawling issue, with an endless number of labels/categories/terms, many of which change quite quickly, and there's little real agreement over the meaning of most of it. Why would anyone who doesn't have a direct interest bother their asses to deal with all that crap?

Like, I've posted to a dozen Trans related threads on boards.. and I'm still trying to figure it all out. Then, take someone like my mother, and she would be lost within seconds. As most people would be. As you said, it's not worth the hassle, and the hostility provided by the activists/spokespeople doesn't do much to encourage them to think otherwise.

Alas, our politicians and other "intellectuals" have decided to run with it anyway.. although I'm pretty sure that their understanding/appreciation of the issues involved is probably minimal.

How Soon Is Now · 20-06-2022 3:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119227307#Comment_119227307

The thing is most people are just ignoring the topic in general and adopting the attitude of ''Sure just let them get on with it'' The government seem only delighted to let the whole thing run and pander to the extremist's every time they have issue with something. Bit by bit there starting to get some kind of standing in society and its more about special treatment and ridiculous requests of others than actual equality and being treated with respect.

20-06-2022 6:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119227378#Comment_119227378

Yeah, well.. this is what happened with all the PC and woke nonsense. It was ignored (in the hopes it would stay in the US), and it was slipped in under the radar by governments in other countries. Little reason to believe that Ireland will be any different. Little difference from the Women's Studies courses done in Irish universities using biased and faulty research to push a particular agenda, which has been allowed to be shown in some secondary schools here. Slipped in under the radar, and no interest in any kind of public debate so that the general population could decide the direction of social change.

The population has lost control over the ship. It's really that simple. Elections do squat to rein in political groups in putting their agendas into play when they get into power.. And in this case, the political parties are all quite gung-ho to pander to the ultra-tiny Trans population, and have the majority pay the cost for it.

dorothylives · 20-06-2022 6:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119227179#Comment_119227179

Twitter is a polarised cesspit. A couple of minutes on it is depressing which is why I don't have it, or Instagram or tiktok and whatever else is out there.

20-06-2022 7:03pm

I reckon we are over the hump now though. Anyone claiming that a man can become a woman (or vice versa) will be seen as the gobshites they are.

Claiming that a person can change sex is literally dehumanising. Humans can't change sex.

It's reassuring to see that people are only willing to tolerate nonsense to a degree.

20-06-2022 7:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119228125#Comment_119228125

I reckon we are over the hump now though

I don't see it. There's still far too much media support, political support and interest in educational circles. The Trans movement is still a contender for forcing social change on many levels. US culture is far too influential... and that matters.

One incident is not going to change that.

dorothylives · 20-06-2022 7:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119228125#Comment_119228125

It's the new racism. Every time someone wants to discuss it they're shot down as transphobic. No discussion allowed if you question it. Now the same tactic of saying that anybody who isn't trans has no right to discuss trans issues, as was tried when people tried to do the same with non black people being told that they shouldn't have a say in what is or isn't racism. It got to a point with the racism accusations where people realised it was a race card that was played every time someone wasn't getting what they wanted and that white people were damned if they do and damned if they don't and the same thing is happening with trans. Imagine being in a changing room with your little child who points out that there's a man getting changed in the changing room and you have to say no dear, that's the ladies penis.

dorothylives · 20-06-2022 7:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119226248#Comment_119226248

Michelle Obama was at this woke crap recently when she spelled women as womxn.

LLMMLL · 20-06-2022 8:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119221625#Comment_119221625

The countess group completely misrepresented themselves. They claim they were there to “just ask questions” and were denied entry once it was “found out” what group they were with.

eh if you go on their twitter You can see a pic of the people denied entry…all carrying protest placards.

As if they were there to just ask questions. What AGM let’s in people with protest placards.

Complete liars.

briany · 20-06-2022 9:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119228125#Comment_119228125

If someone wants to go through the whole thing of getting the hormone therapies and the surgeries and the new wardrobe and everything else, I have no problem fully accepting someone as being whatever sex they've opted to try and become.

Where I see the main thrust of the debate coming from is where people feel they are a gender contrary to the sex they were born as or feel they are something in between. On the one hand, I support giving these people room to express their personality and to respect them as individuals, but I don't think that respect extends to having to fully accept their view of reality in all circumstances. And for all I know, the majority of trans people feel this is a perfectly acceptable compromise and all they want is to be able to live their lives without genuine fear for their wellbeing walking down the street. It's just the militants out there on social media who are really keeping this debate going by muddying the waters between your sex and whatever gender you ascribe yourself and calling hate speech on anyone who points out the difference between these.

I think the last line above will sort itself out in the end, though. These types of people can't keep on the same page and there are enough people out there with simple common sense to know what the differences are.

20-06-2022 9:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119228471#Comment_119228471

Nobody knows about The Countess, whoever that may be.

What's significant is that Dublin Pride condemned the Liveline debates - and stated that these debates were hateful toward the trans- community. If Dublin Pride condemned some peripheral countess, that would be a different matter.

But it was about the content of the debates.

Dublin Pride is both angered and disappointed by the recent unacceptable, triggering and extremely harmful anti-trans "discussions" that have been given a platform on Joe Duffy's LiveLine on RTE Radio 1.

As an official media partner of Dublin Pride, but more importantly as Ireland's national broadcaster, we expect better than for RTE to stoke the flames of anti-trans rhetoric.

Their claims that the debates were imbued with hate could not have been further from the truth.

In fact, not one person has yet identified an example of hate promotion from any of the three Liveline broadcasts.

Any attempt to deflect to some peripheral Countess on Twitter is just that, to deflect from the above.

LLMMLL · 20-06-2022 9:35pm

We are over the hump. Just not in the direction you think. We went over it in 2015 when self ID was introduced. There’s little chance of repealing it considering it’s caused precisely zero issues in 7 years.

that’s why this ridiculous countess groups campaigns amount to writing “believer in biology” in the religion part of the census.

LLMMLL · 20-06-2022 9:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119228620#Comment_119228620

There is no attempt to deflect apart from your attempt to deflect from the countess. The Liveline debates started because the countess group made false claims about their interactions with NWCI. To try and portray this as somehow off topic is laughable. Nice try Eskimo. Nice try.

20-06-2022 9:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119228638#Comment_119228638

Are you saying that the full statement of Dublin Pride didn't reference, specifically, condemnation of the LiveLine debates?

LLMMLL · 20-06-2022 9:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119228646#Comment_119228646

Can you point out where I said that? Direct quote please.

I’d also ask you to point to where in the statement the word “hate” appears, as you claim here:

Their claims that the debates were imbued with hate could not have been further from the truth.

20-06-2022 9:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119228655#Comment_119228655

Dublin Pride expressed that LiveLine were "stoking the flames of anti-trans rhetoric" - that's pretty much the definition of hate right there. Unless you think they weren't referring to hate?

I'm glad that you mentioned that Dublin Pride didn't mention some Countess.

In fact, if this Countless was that important, you'd have to wonder why Dublin Pride felt it necessary not to even mention that person in their public statement? That would suggest, at the very least, that Dublin Pride didn't consider this countess worthy of condemnation; or that this person wasn't really that important in their overall assessment.

But what was important, to them at least, was the nature of the debates held by LiveLine. Their words are unambiguous. Now unless you are arguing that Dublin Pride wouldn't have uttered a word if these debates went ahead - even if no countess was ever involved - then that's your right to believe. I think they would have complained, regardless.

Dublin Pride severed links - and made a fool of themselves - by claiming that these three debates were stoking the flames of anti-trans rhetoric and implying that such debates, for that reason, should never have taken place to begin with. They exposed the censorious nature of their own organization.

And this censorious, angry nature of the trans activist movement isn't isolated to this one example. We've seen what happened in Bristol just yesterday. In fact, this attempt to shut down debate by throwing around labels like transphobic and hate-fest and so on, has been going on for years now. There's really nothing new in what Dublin Pride have done. In fact, it is almost predictable.

But what's new is that it has caused a wider and welcome debate in Irish society about just how extreme trans activists have become. And that can only be a good thing.

bokale · 20-06-2022 9:58pm

.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119228620#Comment_119228620

The countess group was discussed on these liveline episodes though?

20-06-2022 9:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119228721#Comment_119228721

Are you seriously suggesting that Dublin Pride would have welcomed the three debates if this countless wasn't involved?

Come on...

spookwoman · 20-06-2022 10:01pm

But shouldn't any group that gets grant funding from the government be subject to scrutiny allowed to be questioned.

The National Women’s Council is the leading national representative organisation for women and women’s groups in Ireland, founded in 1973. We have over 190 member groups and a large and growing community of individual supporters.

If a women's group wants to question them about trans women groups being represented it's only right they should explain their reasoning and let's face facts, to allow men to represented women and sit on the executive board. They should also be allowed to question when one of those claims to be something they are not on their bio.

I have no issues with trans as long as it does not interfere with the rights of others, of the removal of an existing groups identity. I also don't think it is right to represent women in women's groups or sports when they have lived most of their lives as males and have gone through puberty as a male.

bokale · 20-06-2022 10:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119228723#Comment_119228723

What i mean is to say "Nobody knows about The Countess, whoever that may be." Seems odd if we are discussing the liveline debates. Maybe I'm remembering wrong but the first speaker was from the countess and it was addressed multiple times..

20-06-2022 10:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119228743#Comment_119228743

Perhaps that's true.

But it's not even significant to the wider and major complaint that Dublin Pride made.

Again, don't take my word for it. Dublin Pride, in their public statement, didn't even mention this countess. Their sole focus was on the nature of the LiveLine debates - and that reaction would have been the same even if this countess was not involved.

As I said earlier, this is just an attempt for trans activists to distract from what happened. The focus is always on some tiny, peripheral, irrelevant issue - to distract away from the bigger picture.

I've laid out the evidence here and above, and that's my last word on the matter re: this countess.

LLMMLL · 20-06-2022 10:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119228685#Comment_119228685

Dublin Pride expressed that LiveLine were "stoking the flames of anti-trans rhetoric" - that's pretty much the definition of hate right there.

Lol no it’s not. You’ve just completely invented a definition of hate that doesn’t exist to suit your own purposes. For someone who is so obsessive about definitions of woman and man you seem pretty happy to invent your own definitions when it suits you.

In fact, if the Countless was that important, you'd have to wonder why Dublin Pride felt it necessary not to even mention that person? That would suggest, in the very least, that Dublin Pride didn't consider this countess worthy of condemnation; that this person wasn't really that important.

Oh I fully agree. The Countess group is not important. But whether they are important or not, they misrepresented the reason they were denied entry to the NWCI meeting.

Dublin Pride severed links, and made a fool of themselves, by claiming that these three debates were stoking the flames of anti-trans rhetoric, and implying that such debates, for that reason, should never have taken place to begin with.

Dublin Pride have not made a fool of themselves at all. I fully support their actions and their statement.

And this censorious, angry nature of the trans activist movement isn't isolated to this one example. We've seen what happened in Bristol just yesterday. In fact, this attempt to shut down debate by throwing around labels like transphobic and hate-fest and so on, has been going on for years now. There's nothing new really in what Dublin Pride have done.

I think most people are smart enough to know that many protests are hijacked by a small number of extreme individuals and this does not represent the protest in general.

if after the last few years of polite debate on this issue on boards, your image of trans activism is that crazy protester guy, then your bias and wish to portray those who hold the opposite views to you as extremists is quite apparent.

But what's new is that it has caused a wider and welcomed debate in Irish society about just how extreme trans activists have become. And that can only be a good thing.

I don’t see any debate on the supposed extremeness of trans activism except for the usual suspects on boards.

Self ID is law. It’s caused no issues. The Countess can lie and twist all they want.

bokale · 20-06-2022 10:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119228760#Comment_119228760

Perhaps that's true.

But I think the countess definitely contributed to Prides issue. If you read up more on them maybe you will agree.

20-06-2022 10:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119228565#Comment_119228565

If someone wants to go through the whole thing of getting the hormone therapies and the surgeries and the new wardrobe and everything else, I have no problem fully accepting someone as being whatever sex they've opted to try and become

Me too. But they're the extreme minority within the Trans community. It's far more common that the transition takes years, if not a decade or more to complete. All those treatments are expensive and emotionally/physically difficult. It's far more common to find those who do one or two operations, and living that way for years before continuing with the remainder, if they continue at all. And yet, they're all still the minority. It's the identification crowd (absent any physical transition) who represent the largest numbers within the trans community.

I'll accept them as being female, but that's not the same thing as saying they're a biological woman. Because they're not, and should not be extended the same rights of access to female only spaces, or activities (such as sports). They're still essentially males in a female skin(often retaining the penis, and the muscular strength of a man).

I think the last line above will sort itself out in the end, though. These types of people can't keep on the same page and there are enough people out there with simple common sense to know what the differences are.

Technology has changed everything. The extent by which technology has progressed in 60 years is astounding, and it's drastically affected the fabric of society. We can't really rely on what went before. Too much has, and is changing.

The thing is that social change is accelerating, as are the numbers/range of extremist movements. Take the 60s/70s. It was the peace/anti-war and feminist movements which challenged societal norms. Then, there was race theory, identity politics, etc. Then, political correctness and the development of identity politics into woke ideologies, then... each time the scope expands and the impact is greater than before. Now, with Trans.. we're at the beginning of it all, not the middle or the end of its momentum. Technology will change everything about how people view sex, gender, consciousness, etc. And that's relevant, because the US is the leader of social change in the Western world, and it's not even remotely stable right now, compared with the stability it used to have.

These people don't need to stay on the same page, because transgenderism is an idea... and such ideas don't disappear easily. Worse yet, it's about identity, and we're seeing modern generations facing greater degrees of identity crisis that ever before. Why? Because society has torn down many of the strong pillars of tradition. The roles of men/women in society. The role of religion. The breakdown of marriage and social contracts. The recognition of racism, and tribalism. etc. All contributing to people questioning their place in society... and the Trans movement taps into all that.

That's what really bothers me about the Trans movement. If it only related to those who physically transitioned, I'd have very few fears for the future. It would be worked out because it's quantifiable. Fixed definitions could be set. Boundaries created to guide people. Grand. But it's not. It involves so much more, and we're not in a great place for dealing with it.

20-06-2022 11:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119228624#Comment_119228624

I wouldn't expect you to understand what I meant, but normal rational people who tolerated the nonsense spouted by trans rights extremists for the last few years have finally been pushed over their tipping point.

There is finally some pushback.

It's the trans people who don't want to be associated with the militant activists who will suffer, but they seem to be just collateral damage to the TRA's who want to scream their bullshit.

We all know men can't be women and women can't be men. They are two biologically different things. To say otherwise is simply a lie.

20-06-2022 11:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119228964#Comment_119228964

This is it, in a nutshell.

No BS. Just the simple reality that it's about time we respect science and objective reality and base our decisions upon these principles, rather than some delusional idea that things can be what we think themselves to be.

72sheep · 21-06-2022 12:22am

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2022/06/20/we-need-to-see-the-manufactured-debate-on-trans-rights-for-what-it-is-nonsense/

Una Mullally article in IT today lists every buzzword - Putin!, Catholics!, nationalists! - to characterise conservative perspectives re Trans as "nonsense".

Culture Theory cut its teeth on equality for Women. This subjective interpretative theory about the contextual understanding of art was "good enough" to kick start that movement. That was then pushed to successful conclusion via community sentiment as, especially due to WWII, nobody could pretend women (50% population) were the "lesser sex". The same theory supported the Gay community (5-10% population) and helped recognise their rights. Pragmatically speaking: nearly everyone would know a gay friend/family member and gay rights did not change the life for vast majority of people. The Transgender community however is only 0.5% population and Culture Theory is just not coherent enough to justify a societal sea-change. Pragmatically speaking: very few people have first-hand experience with T community and the changes being demanded are incomprehensible for the vast majority (e.g. "woman" as a signifier is now an unacceptable threat to civil society!)

So there is nothing pragmatic at all about this; and that means someone is making money. Perhaps that's covered in Una's next article ;-)

LLMMLL · 21-06-2022 12:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119228964#Comment_119228964

the pushback is in your head, fuelled by getting into heated arguments on boards for a few weeks a couple of times a year. It artificially makes you think you’re on the side of popular opinion. The supposedly silent majority.

I haven’t seen any coherent pushback to self ID. Even the anti-trans lobby groups don’t bother with that as it’s currently unassailable. They restrict themselves to pointless wittering about the census.

Dublin Pride ends media partnership with RTE over Liveline's Gender Identity discussion

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