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Dublin Pride ends media partnership with RTE over Liveline's Gender Identity discussion

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    The article makes some great points. Especially this one:

    The Irish media has a duty to inform itself and ask why this “discourse” is heightening now. A new lie is being spun that the Irish Gender Recognition Act was “rushed” or somehow devoid of debate. Nonsense. This was an extraordinarily high-profile piece of legislation, with all the accompanying media coverage, political debates and processes, and came on the back of one of the most well-known legal cases in contemporary Irish history, that taken by Dr. Lydia Foy. Some sense, please.

    This lie is endlessly spouted by UK gender critical people. They usually claim that self ID was attached to the “popular” gay marriage legislation.

    popular? We had no idea it was going to pass by a decent majority until the day. The idea that we knew in advance it would be mildly “popular” is laughable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I'll take her up on one thing regarding the process of the Gender Recognition Act, there was media coverage of it, but there would have been very little breathing room for critical media coverage of it. In Editorial rooms, on radio, on television there appeared to be unanimity: "don't touch this one guys, not worth it". It cannot be said that there was no one who had reservations about it, rightly or wrongly, but there was not a signifcant debate around it (was there any? I really can't recall).

    Probably the same phenomenon in the political system. It would have taken a brave TD or Senator in the mainstraim parties to stand up and say, "hang on a second lads, are we sure we're getting this one right?".

    How do we know? Because as soon as the ink hit the paper on something critical of the Act, all hell would have broken loose from predictable quarters as we have seen after Liveline.

    I'm not taking a particular stance on the Act, my mind isn't settled on the issue as I recognise it's complex, but I am certain there is a very censorious impulse from activist groups that would end up at my door if I landed on "wrongthink" on the matter.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭John Doe1


    Anecdotally from talking to quite a few people about the trans thing over drinks, I can assure you that the difference in support between LGB rights and the T from the average person on the street is vastly different.

    LGB is sexual preference, it is tangible, it is real. T is just delusion



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Ah the classic “there was no criticism of the legislation but I don’t like it and everyone must be like me so there must have been secret dissent” argument.

    youll forgive me for taking an argument about how you believe people secretly felt a certain way in 2015 with a gigantic pinch of salt.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Anecdotally, from talking to quite a few people about the trans thing there is a lot of support out there for it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭John Doe1


    From working class people? From people over age 30? From non-urban people?

    The majority who support this are teens/young adults from a privileged background who want to leach on to a supposed marginalised group to appear more interesting. They also tend to be obsessed with American media.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Not at all.

    Self id as whatever gender you want.

    Gender and sex are different. You lot taught us that.

    There are infinite amount of genders, rendering the term pointless.

    Most people didn't differentiate between sex and gender because they didn't care and it didn't affect them. Let the men pretend they are women, what harm are they doing?

    But the lunatic advocates pushed and pushed until finally, ordinary people got sick of being told that biology and facts were irrelevant.

    People like you pushed it too far, to the detriment of the people you pretended to be allies for.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,452 ✭✭✭AllForIt



    Like, I've posted to a dozen Trans related threads on boards.. and I'm still trying to figure it all out. Then, take someone like my mother, and she would be lost within seconds. As most people would be. As you said, it's not worth the hassle, and the hostility provided by the activists/spokespeople doesn't do much to encourage them to think otherwise.

    Precisely. Everyone is, including myself.

    That is why I am irked when I'm accused of participating in these debates for no other reason that 'to hold people back'. To say that it's all just a question of everyone being regarded as equal in law is just reductive.

    I'm more on here to gain an understanding for myself than anything else. I do that by reading opinions, giving my view on it after some thought. That is why I said earlier that I find this message board educational. When the JK Rowling thread was in existence I hadn't a clue what what posters here were talking about half the time which is why I never got involved in it. It's been a journey for me since then that's for sure.

    The thing about gender is noone really understands it. Medical scientist's have tried to understand it but they have never been able to after all the study's. The can't even say what gender is in a psychological sense.

    I have a theory of my own that came to me recently and I think I'm as entitled to put forward my theory as anyone is.

    And here it is;

    The question is always asked; what is the difference between sex and gender. Biological sex vs a personal sense of gender.

    I think that's all wrong. I think gender is basically sexuality.

    So if you ask what is gender? Well whatever it is gender can't exist without sexuality. Gender is grounded in sexuality.

    If one were to accept my way of looking at it, that means it's silly to talk about 'gender' in isolation. As if it's just a personal characteristic like the individual colour of one's hair. Gender is sexuality, is what I'm proposing.

    I want to back this up with what we see. We see Drag Queens, fem boys, transsexuals, trangenders all being grouped together. All of those are regarded as sexual identities, except for transgender (which is though to be simply gender not sexuality), but why is it they are all regarded as 'the same kind of thing' politically. It's because they ARE all the same kind of thing, which is an identity, a characteristic, that is grounded in sexuality.

    Further back up: Whenever you see trans women especially, they classically fashion themselves in a feminine sexual way. You never see butch trans women.

    All those stereotypical natural gender differences that men and women have, men butch, women feminine, exists because of sexuality, to differentiate the two. That is why when one transitions the first think they want to amend or 'fix' is their sexual sex organs, obviously breasts, genital. So clearly their sense of gender is grounded is sexuality, not gender because gender is just incidental to sexuality.

    Now we hear about various gender identities, gender fluid or one of a 100 genders. This is utter nonsense if you think of gender as just gender. It makes much more logical sense if you think about it as a sexuality identity, not a gender identity. Because the sexual fantasy mind exists.

    So again, what I am saying is that there is no such thing as gender in isolation, it is grounded in sexuality. It is an extension of sexuality.

    I want to be really clear , I'm not saying trans is a sexual perversion (no more that I would say homosexuality is a sexual perversion). I'm only saying that gender is grounded in sexuality and gender can't exist without human sexuality. And yes, I am saying that children although not sexually active, they do develop their sexual identity from a young age.

    This all means that I think gender expression is really sexuality expression. This means transgender is a sexuality topic, not a 'gender' topic.

    Now you might ask...what difference does it make? Well it would make a difference because are we really going to teach kids in schools about flip sexuality identities, for one.

    I know there was a incident in the UK in recent years, where Muslims objected to a school teaching kids about homosexual parents. The way the school did it was 'oh look here, some children have 2 mummies'. At first I though that was fine, but I've changed my mind. I don't think we should be teaching kids about flip sexual identities in the guise of doing it for acceptance of homosexuals. In the same way I object to teaching kids about transgender flip identities because it is a sexuality issue in it's nature imo. Over 16 maybe, but not younger.

    So, all of these opinions I couldn't possibly have just dreamt up out of fresh air to to contradict OEJ's accusation that I'm only involved in these debates to 'stop people moving forward'. Clearly I'm using this forum as a way to think about this topic.

    I think the only way forward is to know exactly what transgender is, what is it's nature. Only then can we make progress and agreement. We are certainly nowhere near that as it is.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Of course there is. I've heard a lot of people supporting the "trans thing".

    The ultra progressive types. There's quite a few of them out there. Usually students.

    Reality hits hard. If someone honestly believes that a biological man is the same as a woman who feels she is male, then their opinion is not worth much. They are demonstrably wrong.

    They are the same people who are causing regular people to grow tired of pandering to bullshit.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Woah, slow down there horsebox. There is clearly dissent against the legistlation, this thread alone and the reaction to the Liveline shows is evidince enough that all is not well in the shire with a broad consensus on the Act.

    This unease with the legislation was clearly not carried in the media - and we're all mature enough and know enough about how interest groups in Ireland line up to understand why that is.

    Wheather you think the legislation is the best thing since sliced bread, think it's coming of the trans apocalypse, or like most people are somewhere inbetween - our pluralistic democracy and our media which should be hearing plurality of opinion, served us all badly.

    Culture cannot be changed by fiat, and democracy cannot abide the shadows.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Yea, yes, and yes. I’ve heard support for trans rights from all walks of life. Don’t fool yourself that your chats down the pub somehow mean you’ve tapped into popular opinion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    That’s a nice essay. Complete fantasy though. Just vague assertions about pushing too far and how you have somehow mystically tapped into the common consciousness and determined that “ordinary people” are sick of trans issues.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    regular people support trans rights. You’ve obviously convinced yourself you represent the “normal man” and can speak on behalf of “normal men”. Complete nonsense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    This argument makes no sense. There was robust debate about gay marriage which was happening at the same time. The idea that in 2015 people felt comfortable opposing gay right but were deathly scared of trans groups is so weird and ridiculous that it’s kind of funny.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    Where do you get this stuff from exactly? Who are these regular people? I've said it already, but most people likely don't even think of the topic, yet you're claiming that they support you all the same. Do you really think that the farmer, the plumber, the electrician, the construction workers, are all allies of the trans community? Much like "man" and "woman", you've probably chosen to define regular people as the people in your close circle, who most people likely wouldn't define as the regular people.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I love that you mention normal men while simultaneously holding the position that it's normal for a man to have a vagina and yet I'M the one living in fantasy land.

    Lol. You're beyond parody.

    Regular people, myself included, support people identifying as whatever they want, once reality is also observed and takes precedence.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It was quite a short post. Not an essay. But you are free to identify that it was (doesn't make it true though...common theme).



  • Registered Users Posts: 316 ✭✭Simon.d


    I would argue that most "normal people" support and are allies of trans-people.. However I would also argue that most normal people are very unsettled with the dogma being sprung upon all of us (trans people included) of what this "support" looks like.. The ideologist echo chambers that came up with all this stuff have created a quagmire for Trans-people, striving for an "ideal" that just isn't sensible. It will inevitably make life more difficult as people are being told that they are being discriminated against if someone's understanding of a word in their language doesn't change to what these ideologists want it to mean (i.e. male, female, boy, girl, man, woman etc).. It's wreckless, and not enough people are crying halt for fear of character assassination as we've seen with J.K. Rowling etc..



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I agree.

    I would also say that arguably, people who think like me, that trans-people should be respected but not pandered to, are more genuine allies to trans-people than the unhinged advocates who are telling everyone they should deny reality or be labelled a phobe.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,135 ✭✭✭StrawbsM


    A big problem over the last 5-6 years (could be more) has been the fear of losing your job if you publicly questioned anything to do with trans issues. So people said nothing. The trans side took this as a sign of support but realistically people couldn’t afford to say anything.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 834 ✭✭✭Heart Break Kid



    It was incredibly popular. If you had no idea it was passing, you were being incredibly pessimistic and more so if you couldn't foresee the majority going the way it did. There wasn't a mainstream party oppose to it and the campaign was really strong.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    im following this conversation over a decade and i still dont know that anyone agrees on what they mean by "trans rights"


    specifics.


    can a man identify as a woman- i reckon most would support that

    should others have to agree that that self identification is correct- i reckon most wouldn't support that

    should work/govt functions operate regardless of gender identity- i reckon most people would support that


    etc etc etc


    claiming something as a right without defining it nor checking it against what others would claim as their rights is just cant.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,749 ✭✭✭donaghs


    Wrong. Nice attempt to re-write history. Thankfully we have a written record of this one. There was overwhelming support for the marriage referendum, and this was shown in all the polls. There were some concerns in the media (not sure what they were based on?) that this lead would reduce coming up to the election, but this did not happen.

    New poll shows 76% support for same-sex marriage · TheJournal.ie

    There was indeed a robust debate on same-sex marriage. There was no similar debate that I can recall on Trans issues. And as shown by the liveline issue, raising any questions is now deemed to be heresy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 877 ✭✭✭DarkJager21


    He's not wrong, most people are just apathetic to it as a default. When you start talking about changing references to women to people with a cervix, access to female only areas like changing rooms, 58 different genders etc that apathy turns to something else. The majority of us are adults living adult lives with all the stresses and everything else that comes with that - the "feelings" of strangers or men thinking they are women or vice versa, or 2 spirit pansexuals is a level of emotional maturity below most so it's irrelevant.

    However, when a minority group becomes this abusive and toxic, threatening females and demanding that we remove common terms to appease them, or demanding access to women's changing rooms when they still have a dick and balls? The silent discussion and introduction by stealth of these proposed changes is now over.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,876 ✭✭✭bokale


    I guess your perception of how it might go could have been impacted by where you live. As it was very close in some areas around the country. I'd imagine the chat in some people's locals differed!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The only argument that makes no sense is the argument that says nobody can debate trans- issues on radio lest they be a raging, hateful, vile, bigoted transphobe.

    I'm absolutely certain that, if a referendum were held on the Gender Recognition Act and was properly debated over a number of months in 2022, it wouldn't pass. A version of it may pass, one that is palatable to the concerns of the general public and one that respects women's rights in sports, for example - but the whole lot itself wouldn't pass.

    People would publicly say they support this and that, but once the full debate was had, they'd know instinctively they cannot let this happen - and would vote against it in a referendum.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I wouldn't believe my 14 year old nephew was 21 because he believed he was.

    How is that different to not believing that he was my niece if he believed he was?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭Patrick2010


    Theres no way Trans make up 0.5% of the population, that would mean a total of 25,000 in Ireland believe they are the wrong sex.

    Having a "trans" child seems almost trendy in certain American circles. When Charlize Therons adopted 3 year old boy declared one day that he wasn't a boy Charlize immediately started raising him as a girl. I'm sure when I was 3 I had lots of ideas of I was but thankfully my parents would have just said to have sense, not Charlize. I worry about the psychological damage being done to the poor boy.

    https://www.moms.com/charlize-theron-criticized-deciding-transgender-child/



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,781 ✭✭✭mohawk


    That poster also very conveniently doesn’t mention that the Gender Recognition Act did not start off with Self-ID that came late on in the process. Self-ID was not initially recommended the recommendations were similar to the UK Self-ID was not necessary in order to resolve the issue following the Lydia Foy case

    https://wayback.archive-it.org/11501/20191003063615/http:/www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/Report-of-the-Gender-Recognition-Advisory-Group.pdf



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Regular people do support trans rights. But "trans rights" is almost a nebulous term at this stage, with no real defined meaning.

    If trans- rights means the right of a person to self-identify as a member of the opposite sex - than have at it, almost everyone supports that.

    But what you're forgetting is that most people do not support the specifics; such as trans women competing with biological females.

    • The US: Only 3 In 10 Americans Support Trans Athletes’ Participation In Female Sports, Poll Finds.
    • The UK: Only 19 per cent of Britons supported allowing trans athletes in women's sport against 57 per cent who did not, Poll Finds.
    • Ireland: 55% of respondents said males who identify as women should not be allowed to compete in women’s sports at any level, versus 21% in favour.

    So no, you're not in a majority.

    Most people support trans rights up to a point, but once that boundary is crossed - and it is frequently crossed - people when polled have a very different opinion indeed.



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