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Dublin Pride ends media partnership with RTE over Liveline's Gender Identity discussion

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  • Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭72sheep


    Also there was no hint the legislation was leading to a world where it's a becomes an offence to contest sentences like "the law recognises the reality that men are giving birth".

    At least FINA, the world swimming association, on Sunday voted for a new sensible inclusive approach which introduces a separate "open" category for trans athletes. 



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's genuinely clown world where someone when asked a simple question like "what is a woman?" answers "I'm not a biologist"



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'd be confident that if the Trans topic was held completely separate to LGBQ, most people would express their concern over the consequences to society, and more importantly, to young people. As long as the link is continued though, people will hesitate strongly in making any such honest criticisms. Alas, the goodwill that the LGBQ community has gained in society, is slowly being eroded by the Trans movement, and their advocates.

    I must admit that I roll my eyes whenever I see gender being promoted as being a social construction.. because it's not. It's grounded in the physical. It's impossible to separate the personality from the physical needs of your body. And yes, sexuality is part of that, but even without sexuality in play, I would say that your physical situation determines how you will develop. The social construction comes back to feminist theory, and even after decades, the logic is still full of holes. The big problem here is the influence of modern American psychology can be felt, along with the biased "research" that came out of the American universities. Beliefs, ideas/concepts, that were founded in bias, and people with a desperate need to stay relevant/funded.

    I'm of the belief that there are two genders. Male and Female. Sex and gender are linked. Anything else is a sub-group of those two, because our development happens over decades, it's impossible to remove our experiences of our biological needs, and how that relates to our identity. The difference in having a vagina or penis is rather strong when we consider how it impacts on a persons daily life, whether you're a child or an adult.

    I've spoken to, maybe a dozen, Trans people over the years in the West. And each and every time, their "original" gender is still present. They might claim to be female, but their male origin is still present in their posture, the rhythms of their speech, the way they react to disagreement, etc. They haven't switched from male to female completely.. and so they're stuck in the middle, with a bit of both, but ultimately there's no actual change. They're still males, who want to be female. Or vice versa. Little different with the self-id crowd, who change even less.. and their changes aren't even intended at being permanent. There's no commitment to their beliefs, but somehow, they're supposed to have changed? No. I have too much respect for how we develop as people.. as thinking beings... than to acknowledge this nonsense as being valid.

    That's not to say that I won't pretend to believe them, and extend some respect to them in their delusions.. the same way I extend respect to those in a religion I disagree with. But I will not countenance the changing of society, or the promotion of such shallow viewpoints on influencing the development of children/teens. It's so bloody short-sighted. Just because someone is confused about their gender identity, doesn't mean that their gender can be changed. We all have too much baggage from a gender to be able to shift, and even if we could (which we can't) remove that baggage, our physical needs (including sexuality) tether us to our natural gender.

    Perhaps technology, medicine, etc will change all that in the future.. it's definitely possible (the Cyberpunk world strings to mind), but the future is not now.

    Social conditioning, brain washing, indoctrination can change what we believe to be true.. but it doesn't change the physical considerations, and invariably, the mind follows the body... not the other way around. Our physical needs/demands rule supreme.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That's not to say that I won't pretend to believe them, and extend some respect to them in their delusions.. the same way I extend respect to those in a religion I disagree with. But I will not countenance the changing of society, or the promotion of such shallow viewpoints on influencing the development of children/teens. It's so bloody short-sighted.

    I just don't know where they find the time.

    I'm busy with work, paying the bills, a social life, and so on - to not even think about myself or whether I'm demigender or whatever else it may be. I certainly don't have the time to go around explaining my identity to others (do I even have an identity, hmm, no - I'm just my personality), and definitely wouldn't go around forcing others to talk to me in language I prefer. I just don't have the time.

    I think some degree of emotional maturity is needed to move people away from narcissism and their own sense of self-importance and toward the bigger things in life that encourages personal responsibility, growth toward tangible goals in life, and development.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ahh.. I know how they find the time... because they don't need to find time. Just as I've extensively considered my sexuality, my identity, my biases, my.. whatever. We think of these things while we work, while we go for a walk, while we eat our dinner, or stare vacantly at the TV. Many people think too much.. most of it happening in the subconscious, but the beliefs/realisations emerge half-formed for the conscious mind to establish a framework and ground it in some kind of reality. I understand completely where all this nonsense comes from, because I struggled (and still do, at times) with my identity and my place in society. The problem is that most people will keep the nonsense to themselves, and develop accordingly... however, with the internet, and social change, people are now projecting their theories which relate to themselves outwards to affect others.



  • Registered Users Posts: 428 ✭✭Madeoface


    Somewhere on this thread a poster said there might be 5,000 trans people in ireland. Is there? Or is that figure inflated by trans lobbyists to grab public money? No issue there if that's the game sure the IFA, Social Justice Ireland do the same.

    However, that post about TENI finances and a person identifying as a chartered accountant when it appears they were not, was concerning.

    I'd like more critical discourse and oversight of state funded organisations in this area and not less. Like everyone else, they are accountable to the public. Shutting down discourse is not a good look.



  • Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭A Knight of Ireland


    I'm glad people are starting to see PRIDE for what it really is. It's been too divisive for too long. Time to be truly inclusive and celebrate everyone.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If 0.5% of the population is trans-, that would equate to 25,000 people.

    Now not all of those 25,000 are male-to-female or female-to-male trans-.

    Many of them are non-binary.



  • Registered Users Posts: 414 ✭✭dorothylives




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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Somewhere on this thread a poster said there might be 5,000 trans people in ireland. Is there? Or is that figure inflated by trans lobbyists to grab public money? No issue there if that's the game sure the IFA, Social Justice Ireland do the same.

    There is no specific and fixed definition of what it means to be Trans. You might wake up tomorrow, believe that your gender has shifted, call yourself whatever, and then, the next day, switch back to your original gender. Now, in reality, few people are going to do that, but the logic remains true, except that the day becomes a month, two months, a year, or many years. However, they can always switch back and forth.. because gender is apparently not fixed, and there is no requirement on them staying a particular gender for long, nor for them to define what that gender is.

    So, you go to a teenager, who has been struggling with their sexuality, and suggest to them that they are transgender. It's a good suggestion because it's so vague.. yet, provides support and protection. Now, that teenager could be homosexual, bisexual, or simply heterosexual, but confused over societal roles. That teen could be confused and frustrated for any number of reasons... but when your teacher, your school counsellor, or whoever in authority tells you that you might be trans, what are you going to say?

    Then, there is the external assessment. The psychologists who have become pro-trans over the years, the teachers who love these identity politics movements, the "enlightened" parents who have read a few pop-psych books, and who will decide that this teen/student is trans or that someone's behaviour is hiding their "true" personality, but they should be considered trans regardless of what that individual actually believes.

    And that's why the numbers mean nothing. It's completely inaccurate.. because the bias exists, and what is decided to be Trans could be just about anything. The whole LGBQ community could be considered as being Trans.. it would be wrong, but depending on who you speak to, they could make the case. So.. who decides how many Trans there are in Ireland? is there a bias at play? What are the requirements? etc.

    It's such a joke that this crap has been tolerated so much without being ripped apart for the logical inconsistencies.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,673 ✭✭✭Feisar


    I don't think that's a fair point. Pride IMHO is a good thing as coming out can still be a big issue for some and when a section of society were downtrodden for so long something like Pride is a good counter measure.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I agree.

    In other words, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater because we are justifiably critical of some aspects of what's going on in society.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Curious that you have a major problem with me stating that regular people I’ve talked to support trans rights as they never think about the topic yet have no issue when someone you agree with says the people they talk to do not support it.

    Well not that curious. Just hypocritical.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Again fantasising that you have some insight into regular people and their position on trans rights. Most regular people don’t spend the countless hours on boards that you do. You’re hardly a spokesperson for regularity.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I certainly am.

    Regular people know the difference between men and women.

    You on the other hand think that it's dehumanising to believe that humans aren't able to change their sex/gender by sheer belief. The fact that they ARE human means they cannot.

    YOU dehumanise people by saying they can.

    You should put down those stones before you ruin your glass house.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    the pattern with many referendums has been a slip in support as the date approaches. You’ve carefully chosen your poll numbers but the following is a broader picture:

    Two more polls to be published in Sunday newspapers put support for the constitutional change above 60% , while a third saw the advantage of the Yes side slip to 53% with 24% opposed and almost as many undecided.

    Analysts have said the fall in support in some of the polls is nowhere near as sharp as the decline in support for divorce in a 1995 referendum, when that Yes campaign’s 44 point lead disappeared as conservative campaigners spoke out in the last weeks of campaign. The measure was approved by 50.3%.

    There were extensive discussions at the time about how people could be telling pollsters they would vote for gay marriage but do the opposite at the voting station

    Now if you think 53-60% is some kind of overwhelming positivity that was going to lead to certain victory and enable us evil plotters to attach whatever legislation we wanted and be guaranteed it got through then you’re an extreme conspiracy theorist.

    and you’re missing my point on the debate around trans issues. One poster claimed that people were afraid to speak out in 2015 about this legislation. It makes no sense because people were happy to speak out against gay marriage. Why would they be happy to speak out about that yet afraid of trans issues?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    I’m absolutely certain that a referendum on trans issues would pass with no restrictions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Why would that be convenient for me. It doesn’t change the content of my argument at all. My argument is that self ID was not sneaked into law by being attached to gay marriage. Your comment makes zero difference to that point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Yes when someone shouts “IM NORMAL” I always believe them. It’s such a normal thing to do.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Do you hear yourself?

    Me saying that normal people know the difference between men and women is evidence of my abnormality, yet people saying "despite my biology, I am the opposite" is proof that they should be believed?

    The hypocrisy and idiocy is strong.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You are absolutely certain that men and women are a set of beliefs.

    Forgive us if we are not convinced by your certainty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    As usual, layers and layers of confusion, which is perfectly inline with your ideology. I wrote in plain english, that your social circle likely isn't representative of the regular or average person, which naturally means that the people that I claimed that likely didn't think about the topic, aren't the people you've spoken to. I'm honestly still baffled years later how you people turn simple and direct statements into things that they aren't. You're not that stupid, very few people are, but still you've to act that way in the name of defending the indefensible.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    I never said either of those things. I said you can’t claim to speak for the “regular man”. I never mentioned your beliefs on trans rights as being why you could not speak for tbe “regular man”.

    I also pointed out that someone who spends countless hours of their life on boards is definitely not a regular person. I don’t think you’re the Everyman you think you are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    you said regular people haven’t thought about this issue and are using it to say if they’ve expressed support then they must have thought about it and are therefore not regular.

    now that line of thinking is obviously absurd but I just applied it to the people you agree with on this. If they are being told by their social circle that they don’t support trans rights then their social circle must have thought about it too and therefore they could not be regular people.

    but you don’t seem to have an issue with these people claiming to speak for “regular people”



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You said "Yes when someone shouts “IM NORMAL” I always believe them. It’s such a normal thing to do." which can be taken no other way than you implying that I am acting abnormally by stating that regular people know the difference between men and women.

    You believe that trans people are the sex/gender they identify as.

    So you did in fact say both of those things.

    You double down by calling me abnormal for spending (what you consider an excessive) time on a discussion board. I would argue that you are incorrect.

    It's odd how you wish to paint people you disagree with as abnormal yet try to normalise people not identifying with their biology.

    Almost as if you are deflecting and attempting to de-legitimise the person rather than their points.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    People who genuinely believe that men can be women and women can be men are not regular.

    *edit well they are regular, but regularly wrong. It's certainly not a normal or logical position to hold



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    “Which can be taken in no other way than ….” Is basically code for a massive leap in logic. I did not reference your beliefs about trans people. I am referencing your belief that you speak for “regular men”. which i repeat is nonsense. You are in no position to represent “regular men”. It’s a silly debate tactic. You obviously feel your points do not have enough substance to stand alone and need to invent that popular opinions supports you.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That's just an assertion.

    I referenced multiple polls that showed 20pc of the population support trans women entering biological female sports.

    I very much doubt that, even on this major issue alone, that the GRA would have passed if put to a referendum; and that's without even considering all the other factors and implications of the legislation.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Absolutely not true.

    It is not a leap in logic to say that regular people (normal people) know the difference between a man and a woman.

    You do not.

    You, (and correct me if I am wrong here), are of the belief that in order to be a woman or a man, you need only identify as one.

    That is not the popular opinion by even the largest stretch of imagination.



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