Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

The SGs will all be withdrawn just like these new electric buses will be eventually.

There'll be a big expansion of services throughout the country so not all will be replacing. Already DB have had to bring back some AXs into service due to the introduction of the N4 route. I'd say by this time next year all the DB fleet should have centre doors bar the 2 WSs if you want to be pedantic.

The newest SGs are only 2 years old so I can't see them being withdrawn anytime too soon.

Dublin Bus revenue fleet at the moment is actually closer to 1100 buses, including their 24-strong Tours fleet however. Personally I note 48 AV/AXs (of which 21 Tours), 66 EVs (of which 3 Tours), 147 GTs, 569 SGs, 25 VGs, 24 VTs, 2 WSs, 9 tester hybrids, and 214 PAs as of last Friday. The maths is simple by those numbers: 115 standard-length deckers from before 2010 are still in PSO service (and the VTs, but it's obvious they're not going to be replaced by tri-axle deckers because why would they...), and I would suspect that while there is service level expansion planned with the rollout of BusConnects, whatever needs to be replaced will be replaced as soon as possible anyway.

By the 14-year rule we should already have seen the back hide of EV1-50, but to be honest, a selection of every year's batch has made it to their 15th if not 16th year in service every single year for the past at least 6 years - case in point, the surviving 06 AXs.

Of course there is then the 157-strong GAI city fleet for their 1st contract, but the AXs might as well be dismissed from that count, so say 148. After dismissing the 11700s the oldest buses in GAI fleet are from 2013 anyway, so Ballymount isn't in any sort of dire need of replacing - perhaps accounting for service expansion, but that's it at most.

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What has been brought to my attention in the last couple of weeks is some sort of a new legality being brought about by the European Union. If this indeed goes through, and I believe it will, as it has been voted up AFAIK, then basically from 2025 onwards cities above 100k population will be allowed to sign new PSO contracts with operators using only low- and zero-emission bus fleets. Disregading there being only two such cities in Ireland and disregarding there being only a single nationwide transport authority, in the current direct award PSO cycle with DB and BE that would indicate that there is now a seven year timeline to get them (definitely DB anyway) in line to fulfil this criterium before a potential 2029-34 contract. Mind you, this will also really start messing around with the GAI contract - its default run expires next year, but the NTA can extend it for up to two years pending good operating record (no we're not going into this discussion please), so if the NTA chooses to give GAI two full years, then it would appear that the follow-up contract would have to be low-/zero-emmission as well, as it would come into play in 2025.

Source >> https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threads/%C5%81%C3%B3d%C5%BA-autobusy.196515/post-178889528 (the surrounding discussion is in Polish, but the screenshots around this are in English)

Very interesting TranslatorPS. But we have to remember that the NTA are quite unique to the best of my knowledge in the sense that they own the buses which the operators operate on their behalf.

To the best of knowledge most gross cost contracts are tendered on the basis that the operator owns and operates the buses. I know it's no longer in the EU so not relevant but London buses are mostly owned by the operators not TFL with the notable exception of the LT class. FYI it's actually almost the exact opposite of Dublin model where the authority owns the buses and the operator owns the garages.

The NTA could always try and find a way at succeeding at getting around these regulations if they come to fruition. Either some loophole or failing that a special dispensation similar to what Irish Rail has meaning it doesn't have to be split between infrastructure and operations subsidiaries. Although I do notice IE are doing more to split operations and infrastructure in recent years.

I hope the new buses won't be as bad as the streetlites as they're both wrightbus integral products. I've been on the streetlites and they're awful noisy (guess an electric bus won't have this issue), the breaking on them is dreadful and I notice the driver always looks very awkward driving them.

Yes, you have a fair point - after all, while DB and BE are still more of a mixed bag, GAI only own themselves four of their revenue fleet buses (the E200s, 2701-2704). Dublin's model is VERY rare on the contracting scene, and as you rightly point out, the typical practice is to have the Operator provide the buses for themselves. I suppose from the Authority's point of view, the argument for providing the buses to the Operator could be that it shifts the purchase costs from the somewhat predictable (off the market prices anyway) but variable element of a tender offer to a known constant in their own costs. It could however be the case that there are legal restrictions in other countries - but then again while there are none such in Poland, I believe there hasn't been a single case of the City/Authority providing buses for a private Operator (there have been NTA-DB style purchases, yes, but not Göteborg-style City-ownership Operator-driving), but I think this is more to do with throwing the resale problem at the Operator.

Anyway. If we take the wording of this literally...

...whereby it says "only to entities using only zero-emission and low-emission buses" (btw the following bracket there answers your later message), then we could assume that the plan is to cover both the typical Continental scenario and the Göteborg/Dublin scenario. Also on the very left, "to exclusively purchase".

The single most common complaint about StreetLites I've heard from GAI drivers is about the brakes and steering. And frankly, reportedly no-one enjoys StreetLites in the UK either.

Oh no no, that's not the idea here at all - as far as I understand. My understanding is that any operating contract signed before 2025 continues as is, but anything signed in '25 onwards would have to conform to the low emission requirements. Hence I highlighted the current DB contract cycle, which would see DB sign a new contract in 2024, which would allow them to continue with the current fleet until 2029 (if they continue the five-year cycle), but as far as I see it, they'd have to operate a low-/zero-emission fleet for a 2029-2034 contract.

A lot would depend on the actual energy usage, but I suspect they'd be able to do about 200 km on a single charge.

(Maths behind this? My homecity's Solaris Urbino 12 electric have 116 kWh batteries and are said to be able to do about 60 km. In a direct capacity-to-mileage distance that amounts to about 235 km, but we have to account for the double-decker being heavier, so I shaved off a bit.)

Ooops, looks like I've made the foolish assumption to think this would apply to all of EU. As things seem to be exactly as you say, I withdraw all of my comments regarding this.

I think the only negatives I've heard so far about the PA/PADs from drivers are about mirrors and the handbrake lever being really far back, but then again I haven't heard a whole lot about them to begin with. The Streetlite hate though? Yeah, consistent.

The seats on those hybrids look like they were inspired by the Urban 90 which were probably the most uncomfortable bus seat seen on the UK/Irish Market in recent times i know its only a demo model so hopefully they get the same seats as the PAs which are quite comfortable or better still the Esteban Civic seats which the AHs and the BE 2018 VWDs have.

I've heard the Electroliners in Belfast are actually quite good in terms of build quality so maybe Wrights have improved under Bamford.

I don't know exact averages but I know it's not uncommon for DB buses to be out from 5 or 6 in the morning until 11 or 12 at night. Bus could be for 15/16 hours a day easily. Remember these buses are being passed from driver to driver to driver throughout the day.

With GAI it's a bit different as most buses stay with the one driver for the entire day .

Apparently 640 Dublin / 160 Outside Dublin.

BE will probably have a three-letter code finishing in D, since the VWDs, PADs, and HWDs do so, pretty much all the double-deckers to enter service in the last 14 years as such.

EW doesn't sound too far off the mark for DB though, as Electric Wrights it might fall into the pattern of PAs - and then perhaps BE will fall in line as EWD. I am curious as to how the single deckers will fall in - ES for DB, ESL for BE? Most of the recent single deckers ended in L for longer and M for shorter wheelbases (AM, VWL, WM/WL, SL, DWM), pretty much only the Citaro MCs and some of the Trident stuff breaks out of that pattern.

On another note, it is my presumption that the last 24 hybrids will be for GAI due to the W4/W6 tender, at which point I'm wondering if they won't be numbered in a potental 40000 series, seeing how it's their fourth separate contract (outer Dublin is first, all fleet is 10000, rte 197 is second, 2000, Kildare commuter is third, 30000s).

Precisely, I can't see them doing 300 km on a good day. I could see a single-decker doing that, but not a double-decker.

Honestly all DB have to do on these longer roads is just adjust the schedule here and there and have more early duties finishing and late duties starting in the garage, circulating more buses throughout the day, and it should solve it. I'd say the one major route that would have to be rescheduled from scratch is the 145 to have buses float between Bray and Donnybrook better (or better yet, just don't put electrics on the Bray 145 at all), but I'd say the 145 would be faaaar down the list of routes to electrify, and its eventual spiritual replacement under BusConnects falls into the same category as the 155...

The 24 PAs are fleet expansion buses - not replacement.

Shiny polished new hydrogen bus

It is at the launch of the Hydrogen Hub in Galway

https://www.galwaydaily.com/news/public-meetings-to-take-place-this-week-in-city-on-gh2-hydrogen-hub/ https://www.gh2.ie/

I think DB had one back in the day that had to be fueled down the docks

Well spotted from a train

Did they have to borrow a spare mirror off DB? 😀