Public Pay Talks - see mod warning post 4293

fliball123 · 22-06-2022 3:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119235413#Comment_119235413

No its not but they still need to be held account for spending and borrowing. When our interest rates rise to 5% which it will at some point in the near term how how much will servicing that 250 Billion take from the coffers just to service not even paying any of it back? We know its not a business as if it where Ireland Inc would of hit the wall and gone into phucking receivership with the state of its accounts and with a looming recession to manage.

AndrewJRenko · 22-06-2022 3:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119235432#Comment_119235432

They ARE held to account. Every five years- general elections.

fliball123 · 22-06-2022 3:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119235442#Comment_119235442

Yeah and FF/FG see the Sinn Fein written on the wall and are trying to buy the PS voting block and what does that actually mean to a government employee, does their pension get hit, they take a pay cut and go and sit in opposition. Its hardly being held to account

Doodah7 · 22-06-2022 3:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119235451#Comment_119235451

The vast majority of Civil Servants would not vote for SF in a blue fit.

fliball123 · 22-06-2022 3:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119235467#Comment_119235467

And you know that how, did you ask all of them? and I am talking the whole of the public sector.

22-06-2022 4:20pm

should public servants be paid at all while the govt have a deficit?

if yes then why

now develop from there. youll get there good man

fliball123 · 22-06-2022 4:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119235557#Comment_119235557

Never said anything about them not being paid while there is a deficit but when you add onto the deficit its a case of where do we get the money from? The magic money printers from the EU have been turned off, we are at full employment and already the one of the most if not the most progressive when it comes to income tax and already this issue is causing a lot of issues trying to get people to work in the country so this well cannot be hit again if anything the burden on income tax payers should be decreased and we are borrowing 4 billion this year alone without this extra expense as well as the little 250 Billion debt which will be costing more to service from July this year with the first of many interest rate rises to come. So you develop from there you show us how we do this and include the fact that it cannot be done without inflicting a lot of pain on other cohorts and you will get there good man.

22-06-2022 4:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119235579#Comment_119235579

please stop repeating yourself in these long screeds i find it very hard to motivate myself to reread the points already made.

you did not answer the question.

you are the one insisting on the link between balanced books and wages in a competitive labour market so i feel if you cannt answer the question it may be difficult to take you very seriously

fliball123 · 22-06-2022 4:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119235588#Comment_119235588

No read what I said its not just the deficit, its the debt, the servicing of the debt and the different tax models we have. Income tax has been hit over and over to the point where its hard to attract workers to come and work here from other countries. Corpo tax could be hit but if this truck of money moves from Ireland the IMF will be back in town pronto. I have said its about finding how to pay for it as its going to happen I would just like the government to be up front and tell us what way they are paying for it as I can only see one of three ways, will it be borrowed and left to our kids and grand kids, will we be paying more taxation or what services will be cut in order to pay this pay rises as there is no other way to finance this.

22-06-2022 4:35pm

im not sure that you are in the right thread, but until you can bring yourself to demonstrate why public servants should be paid at all while we run a deficit im going to presume you aren't- because none of this is relevant until you do that.

fliball123 · 22-06-2022 4:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119235618#Comment_119235618

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119235628#Comment_119235628

Read the whole train of my messages I included other areas (not exclusive to deficit) in my commentary. I never once made a singular point "that PS should not be paid while we have a deficit" it if I did can you link it here please. I have included it in the whole array of issues the country faces.

22-06-2022 4:52pm

so you are not going to demonstrate why public sector wages should be linked to the deficit? because i stress yet again that you are the person doing so- for two pages now.

i dont know if you are following me here so apologies while i work through it- after that, enjoy the thread i guess hope you get what you need out of it

so:

public servants shouldnt be paid according to market levels for their roles/responsibilities/experience/qualifications

public servants shouldnt be paid with reference to inflation or costs in the wider economy

but

public servants should be paid if the government is making money

or

public servants should be paid if the deficit is dropped

now you may quibble that you're not saying public servants shouldnt be paid nor are you saying that we need to turn into one of what, five? countries in the world not to run a deficit.

but what you are very definitely doing is linking whether public servants get a pay rise to match inflation or salary growth in general to the deficit and public debt

what i am asking you to do is to have the courage of your convictions and tell us, if you believe the above and arent just -as always, tbh- lecturing public servants that they never had it so good, at what level of public debt or deficit you would like us to work for free.

if the answer to that- and remember now three times you've refused to answer- is that is a ridiculous notion then i agree.

but tell me where you stop thinking it is a ridiculous notion?

public sector pay cuts while inflation runs riot?

public sector all reduced to a flat 35k wage?

if all national debt gets called in tomorrow we sacrifice ten public servants a week to make deficit hawks feel better?

should every professional role in the public sector be filled with a contractor? do you have any idea how difficult it is to actually get in qualified and experienced people at the current pay scales in a host of areas? no- you dont.

a final note, what you know about public sector pensions isnt worth the time to read. its a vastly changed beast in the last several years.

HartsHat · 22-06-2022 4:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119235432#Comment_119235432

State finances and company finances bear no resemblance and have completely different characteristics, objectives, restraints etc. When we people get this in to their skulls.

fliball123 · 22-06-2022 6:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119235712#Comment_119235712

Once again where did I say ps pay should be linked to the deficit you need to read the post I was responding too. You say they should be paid the market rate yet in England or across the boarder their counterparts in the public sector are paid less for the comparable work being done and yet two sides of the negotiating table looking to put a price on a pay rise are both public servants so your argument makes no sense as no one knows what the market rate should be. So are you saying ps pay should be linked to inflation - Why should it be so and if we have a recession should their pay be linked and cut to levels that can be afforded? My point and any one reading what I have been saying and following on from other public sector employees posting on here are there are people saying Tesco are getting 10% pay rises so the public sector should get the same. So it kind of suits the narrative of those posters to have a comparison to private sector companies when they look at them and see them getting raises and they want the same and yet when you add in debt and deficits and all the other issues that our public purse finds itself in - all of a sudden you cant compare the governments control on finances with a private sector company. I hope that clarifies my position. Now can you answer my question where do we get the money from. are we

A:) Cutting services

B:) Borrowing more on the never never so our kids and grand kids pay it back with sh1t load on interest

c:) pay more taxes and if so what mechanism will be used.

I have tried to answer your question can you try and answer mine.

fliball123 · 22-06-2022 6:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119235740#Comment_119235740

Yet some on here do exactly that when they see Tesco getting a 10% payrise and saying we in the public sector should get the same

exitstageleft · 22-06-2022 6:26pm

I think 10%+ inflation would actually be pretty good for the national debt.

Of course, a recession wouldn't...

fliball123 · 22-06-2022 6:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119236127#Comment_119236127

Not with the insurance that interest rates will be rising to combat inflation, if interest rates rising was not an issue I would completely agree.

22-06-2022 6:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119236086#Comment_119236086

sorry you didnt answer my question and im not tbh reading another paragraph that takes up a page

i dont believe you are addressing my counterpoint and im kind of done with it

Quitelife · 22-06-2022 6:37pm

Its not great timing that Medical Fat Cat consultants are getting pay restoration at this time with many earning 200K plus.

They do a couple of days a week or hours a day with the Public list and then spend longer hours creaming the private list, many of these medical consultants pulling half a million a year whilst the public waiting lists get longer and longer. Mad stuff.

fliball123 · 22-06-2022 6:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119236167#Comment_119236167

I did answer your question its just you have no answer for mine sure we can leave it there anyone reading will see whats what

rogerywalters · 22-06-2022 6:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119229955#Comment_119229955

Im in a similar position ,although the AP grade is actually quite similar to the private sector with regards to finance, can be got easily enough 2-3 years post qualifed accoutancy wise and year 2/3 at AP is near 80k. 80k after qualifying 2 or 3 yrs is very competitive.

HartsHat · 22-06-2022 6:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119236185#Comment_119236185

There are very very few 26 year old APs or anything near it.

rogerywalters · 22-06-2022 6:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119236196#Comment_119236196

Yeah you are right to be fair, but i know a good few APs that havent finished there exams very long but would have started that bit older and have bits of other experience. There are plenty of 30 year old APs.

22-06-2022 6:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119236176#Comment_119236176

how much should public medical consultants earn

how mad are you about remuneration packages in the private sector for employees/consultants for services that people also need?

22-06-2022 6:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119236220#Comment_119236220

there are plenty of 30 year olds on 80k and more

rogerywalters · 22-06-2022 7:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119236260#Comment_119236260

Right so , theres plenty on 72/75k and they are close to 80k. Edit you said there "are". Sorry.

22-06-2022 7:06pm

or to tie the thread together from those two points:

what is the standard responsibility in function for eg an AP in terms of spend/resources and criticality of role in service delivery and what would that map to in a multinational org?

everyone wants to talk about profit or deficit but guys here's the thing: it's about paying people for their role in delivery of a service.

I'd put a lot of AP jobs somewhere around say project manager or the like in a multinational, packages for which you wouldnt blink at 80k starting with matching pension contributions and bonus and a ball of other features besides

ive seen AP operations roles that would be worth a lot more than that, and AP policy roles that maybe wouldn't quite get up to that.

If you're not awful worried about what a middle manager earns in IBM or Google or Microsoft then maybe start a thread about your deficit concerns we're in here talking about wages for job done

Dav010 · 22-06-2022 7:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119235557#Comment_119235557

National Minimum Wage Act 2000, that’s the yes and the why.

exitstageleft · 22-06-2022 7:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119236137#Comment_119236137

Not sure this is the case. Say interest rates on state loans hit 5% (which would be high). A €100,000 loan for one year would cost €105,000. But if inflation is at 10% then wouldn't the amount owed, in quivalent terms, be €94,500?

Regardless of the accuracy of my figures, I'm pretty sure holding debt is not bad during inflation, as long as you can meet the repayments.

Of course, meeting those repayments might mean getting a raise at work....

22-06-2022 8:51pm

Oh my god, can we just cut through all the bullshit here please?

Basically those who are saying civil and public servants and their families who are struggling with the same inflation, the same increases in groceries, fuel, energy, rent and every other living cost that is increasing, as those in the private sector (or Tesco, or AIB) should just smile and suck it up because "the economy" or "what profit are you making" or whatever bloody bullshit excuse you come up with to justify not paying them anything but the crumbs of the table. The same bullshit we heard back in 2008.

Its like Civil and public servants aren't even seen as PEOPLE with families depending on them, and the same worries about making ends meet as anyone in the private sector. Facing into the same hikes we've been told to expect this winter, but with a pittance extra to pay for them.

The vast majority of the public sector are not on €80k a year, or anything like it.

The truth is, I'm not worried about the kids or grandkids in the future, I'm living in the here and now, not 20, 30 years from now. Anyway, at this rate, younger civil and public servants definitely won't be able to afford to have any kids. Not unless they have the sense to hook up with someone who works for Tesco or AIB and gets proper payrises, anyway.

The attitude that we should just gracefully allowed ourselves to be screwed over, and take it with a smile "for the good of the country" or listen to guilt trips about "the kids of the future", yet again, makes me fcuking furious.

Public Pay Talks - see mod warning post 4293

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