Public Pay Talks - see mod warning post 4293

fliball123 · 23-06-2022 1:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238825#Comment_119238825

Ah yeah I will get the state pensions alright but what I am paying in PRSI will more than cover my state pension.

fliball123 · 23-06-2022 1:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238797#Comment_119238797

The 170 Billion is for borrowing over the last decade and a half for our out of control expenditure and the 2 largest areas of expenditure are Welfare and public sector pay and pensions I never said anything about it for overpaying public servants or for only over paying them. I did say PS pay and pensioned ballooned by more than double in the run up to the crash that is on record you can look that up yourself. Bertie buying the sector off with bench marking.

23-06-2022 1:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238846#Comment_119238846

ive told you already

your prsi payment doesnt fully go into state pension, so forget that straight off

the contribution a public sector worker makes to their pension is proportionately a lot higher

you will come back about a pensions shortfall which you neither elaborate on nor understand even if you had the figures and i will then counter with "yes an occupational pension scheme very often involved an employer making an agreed matching contribution"

i might even note that the pension has changed significantly - twice- since whatever scheme it is you think you're referencing but as ive already said here this is like debating a dog that listens to newstalk. im doing it more to amuse myself than in any hope that the dog will understand.

fliball123 · 23-06-2022 1:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238886#Comment_119238886

Sorry but as an individual the payment i make in PRSI will more than cover me for my state pension and the rest will go to others. To say otherwise is horsesh1t.

23-06-2022 1:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238846#Comment_119238846

You think?

fliball123 · 23-06-2022 1:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238924#Comment_119238924

It does and then some.

Fred Astaire · 23-06-2022 1:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238824#Comment_119238824

Again, you've spelled it out in technical terms.

Everybody knows how inflation works. Everybody also understands that the same payment 20 years ago and the same payment today is not by technical terms, a pay cut.

What about every economist and financial expert worth their salt outlines, is that when inflation rises and you don't get corresponding pay rises, then you have gotten an effective pay cut.

Over a period of time spanning decades, if a persons wage remained stagnant over this whole period, then this is a colossal effective pay cut and thus a remarkably clear example of an effective pay cut. Which is what you were pedantically trying to say wasn't the case because err, 200 is still 200.

And you've walked yourself into another bit of bother there, because inflation in Ireland has been positive for 57 out of 61 years since 1960. 57 years of positive inflation vs 4 of negative. 2 of those years of negative inflation saw inflation at .29% and .33%.

The other 2 years were in 2009 and 2010, where inflation dropped to -4.48 and -.92. And what happened to public sector workers then? Yep. Ding, ding ding! You guessed it - Pay cuts.

So, funnily enough - when real negative inflation comes along, (not a .29% or .33% which is so marginal it isn't worth bothering with) guess what happens - pay cuts! Yep, not a 2nd effective pay rise, but pay cuts.

howiya · 23-06-2022 1:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238824#Comment_119238824

There would need to be deflation rather than a fall in inflation for your second point to hold.

23-06-2022 1:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238841#Comment_119238841

Here's another actual fact for you from a public service manager, and something that was already mentioned on the thread that you obviously missed.

You do know that even though all have to complete PMDS every year, not all will receive an increment as a result of it?

Why not? BECAUSE THEY ARE ALREADY AT THE MAX OF THEIR SCALES.

99.7% may indicate how many got a satisfactory rating. It does NOT reflect what percentage received an increment.

Jesus H Christ, the amount of times such basic information has to be repeated on thread is ridiculous.

Peter Flynt · 23-06-2022 1:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238760#Comment_119238760

Let the government go ahead and privatise the lot then - schools, hospitals, water, etc . . . . then you better have a big wallet with lots of cash in it.

caviardreams · 23-06-2022 1:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238728#Comment_119238728

Seriously thinking of jumping ship - would you mind sharing how you find it better? The attraction of working in a more performance-based culture with greater accountability is what's attracting me to the private sector.

23-06-2022 1:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238928#Comment_119238928

You do understand that your PRSI does not go into a personal savings pot just for you, right?

And that in fact your PRSI contributions will not be paying your pension.

Your pension will be paid by the contributions of future workers. Including public sector workers who also contribute to the great big PRSI pot.

fliball123 · 23-06-2022 1:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119239014#Comment_119239014

I understand that yet I will have still paid in more in PRSI than I will receive when it comes to getting my state pension so I have paid my own way and then some ..

Flinty997 · 23-06-2022 1:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238668#Comment_119238668

That your choice. If you think public sector is better (pension and wages) move there. Vote with your wallet. If you are in the private sector its because you chose to be there. I suspect you want the best of worlds and the disadvantages of neither.

23-06-2022 2:02pm

If anybody would like to move to public sector, upskill and train as healthcare professional. They are crying out for them!

23-06-2022 2:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119239096#Comment_119239096

Oh, so you can predict the future and when you're going to die now, too? If you retired at 67 you could be drawing that pension (plus all the secondary benefits) for well over 20 years.

Must be a big pot if you think you've covered all that, yet you've led us to believe you haven't a pot to pee in.

fliball123 · 23-06-2022 2:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119239164#Comment_119239164

Well working since I was 17 so thats 50 years of paying PRSI so yeah I will have more than covered it if I live that long which is highly unlikely

HartsHat · 23-06-2022 2:07pm

I worked it the private sector before I moved to the public sector. I was paid (literally) double and got another chunk in bonuses. I never saw anyone fired from the company, even the laziest most useless yokes, and there were informal increments which all the professional staff got.

My pension was also better because I was able to put so much into it which I also got tax relief on.

If you're in the private sector and you've got worse terms than the public sector thats on you. There are massive chunks of the private sector which much better conditions.

23-06-2022 2:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119239096#Comment_119239096

there is an observable set of behaviours in debating someone who is seeking to project certainty in complex areas they know little about.

1- make a very sure statement about a topic

2- ignore the responses that contradict elements of that statement or develop the simplistic understanding in the statement beyond what might comfortably fit into the original speaker's understanding

3- repeat the original statement without reference to the information in those responses.

you do not think you are a troll but squire you are in fact a troll and you have been a troll on this topic for a very long time

Shuffl_in · 23-06-2022 2:11pm

Is there much point debating with fliball123? He's clearly loving the attention. It's clearly his favourite topic and has been for years. Nobody is going to change his mind.

Gusser09 · 23-06-2022 2:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238846#Comment_119238846

I'm a civil servant. What I pay in PRSI and the Pension Levy will more than cover my pension too.

fliball123 · 23-06-2022 2:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119239229#Comment_119239229

Yeah loving it and no one has put up a credible argument to change my mind. Its a shame this kind of post along with being called a troll and not one of you answering the question of how we pay for pay rises and no acceptance that the burden will fall on others or others will get a cut in their pay via increases taxes or borrowing or a cut in services to pay for it. So it it kind of sums up Public sector land ye know where an increment that gives you a rise in the amount of pay you receive in your weekly wage is actually in public sector land its not a pay rise. Go figure

Flinty997 · 23-06-2022 2:28pm

Public sector also pays the tax that pays for everything too.

You don't always get an increment if you are end of scale. So you might be many years on the same salary.

If you are private sector worker on public sector contracts, outsourcing etc. Tax is paying your wages, payrises, bonuses and pension also.

Same difference.

23-06-2022 2:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119239299#Comment_119239299

Yes, they have - you just refuse to lose face and accept that you're completely and utterly wrong on just about every level.

I will not be wasting any more time or effort on you, when you're constantly just repeating points have already been refuted.

Moving on....

fliball123 · 23-06-2022 2:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119239388#Comment_119239388

No one has answered where the money is to come from answer that one question please?

Flinty997 · 23-06-2022 2:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119239401#Comment_119239401

Everything comes from tax. No one needs to ask that.

fliball123 · 23-06-2022 3:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119239530#Comment_119239530

Well no it doesn't. We borrow as well hense our 250 Billion debt currently, which will be a lot more expensive to service as the decade progresses with interest rate rises, we also make decisions to cut other areas of expenditure in order to pay other expenditure. So even though we borrowed 4 billion last year, will we borrow how many billions for this pay increase or what taxes are we going to increase? At least you tried to answer it. Now try and put that in the confines of us at near full employment so we cant get more tax in via creating more jobs. We are already one of the most progressive regimes when it comes to income tax so this cannot be touched as our welfare regime is actively competing with work. Also welfare are screaming for more with the cost of living rising how much more will they want. Now where do we get the increase in tax from how much is being looked for 10%? The PS pay bill was about 23.5 billion last year so that's another 2.35 billion to be found and that before the current housing/homelessness issue has a penny thrown at it.., We also need more money pumped into our health sector, we need more schools and more infrastructure... Be nice to hear from Varadkar and Martin how they will fund the increases before negotiation so the general public are aware that they will be or their kids/grand kids (depending on how long the can will be kicked down the road) will be taking the hit. Look I dont doubt that a lot of public servants are deserving of a pay rise but not at the expense of the rest of us and not when we have a recession looming.

rogerywalters · 23-06-2022 3:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238745#Comment_119238745

Yeah same to be honest.

Doctor Jimbob · 23-06-2022 3:18pm

Since a lot of people in this thread seem to be struggling with the concept of effective pay cuts due to inflation, the below definition from Collins dictionary may be useful:

Effective - having a particular role or result in practice, though not officially or in theory.

Dav010 · 23-06-2022 3:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238967#Comment_119238967

It wouldn’t.

Deflation is where inflation rate drops below 0%, goods are actually cheaper then they were in the same month last year. Using Fred’s logic, if wages were to stay the same and that happened PSs would have an “effective” pay rise as their wage would buy more. On the other hand, if PS wages were to match inflation today and actually rise by approx 9%, again using Fred’s logic, you would later get another “effective” pay rise if the rate of inflation fell to say 4% on the same month a year earlier. You already have your 9% increase, but goods are now less expensive then they were when you received it, albeit still 4% higher than they were last year. Disinflation leaves you ahead when your wages have increased to match a previously higher rate of inflation.

Public Pay Talks - see mod warning post 4293

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