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US Supreme Court to overturn Roe vs Wade

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  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Do I need to describe Republicans again or do we get the picture at this stage?



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,412 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Legally, the AZ AG is correct. There is a post conviction process in place to address such things, which is the meat of the problem SCOTUS was addressing. Did the prisoners correctly follow that process? There are not decades of precedent here which are being overturned, the problem is that there is no precedent at all. The argument is over whether the Martinez holding can be read to include the Shinn case or not. From SCOTUSblog.

    In Shinn v. Ramirez and Jones, two men on Arizona’s death row raised claims in habeas corpus proceedings that their trial attorneys were constitutionally ineffective – one for failing to investigate evidence suggesting his client could not have committed the crime, and the other for failing to investigate her client’s intellectual disability, which could have spared him the death penalty. Although the Supreme Court’s 2012 decision in Martinez v. Ryan permitted defendants to raise such claims for the first time in federal court, on Monday the court ruled 6-3 that they cannot develop evidence to support those claims.

    For those who want to read the actual opinions, both majority and dissent , it can be found here. https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/21pdf/20-1009_19m2.pdf

    It’s over 40 pages long, and is not a simple matter. I certainly won’t offer an opinion as to which side is correct as I don’t have the hours to spend looking up the case law and legislation cited by both sides, but I will observe that none of the nine judges care (in their written opinions, at least) whether or not the prisoners are actually innocent. That’s not the federal judiciary’s role, they only care that federal laws are applied in the determination of guilt or innocence.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,589 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    But part of the Arizona AG's argument in front of SCOTUS was that "Innocence alone wasn't sufficient reason to overturn a conviction"

    Surely that is the single most important reason for over-turning a conviction, particularly a sentence of death??

    And part of Thomas' reasoning for the opinion was that it was too onerous a burden on the State to investigate things of this nature - So proving a person is worthy of execution shouldn't require to much effort on the part of the Prosecution?

    The whole thing is just so contrary to common sense and decency.

    Primarily starting with the Arizona AG who when faced with this specific case felt it was better to go to the Supreme court to protect their earlier decision rather that call a new trial or simply release the guy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 83,407 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    That’s what I’m stuck on too. The court is supposed to be there as the last check valve. These 9 engineers tasked with saying how the legal engine works decided to let an innocent man die in the works because they couldn’t be arsed to provide that relief valve?

    Can only hope now that Biden commutes his sentence since we’ve established he’s innocent.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,589 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    It's also so very consistent with the GOP mantra of "If you are poor , F**k you" - Health care , Employment law and now it seems even "The right to a fair trial" all get hit with the same Conservative dogma.

    The Guy got assigned an over-worked public defender who also just wasn't very good at his job , who then dropped the ball in a big way so now because he was too poor to hire his own team of lawyers he gets the death penalty for something that evidence suggests he didn't do - Evidence that was present at the time of his case that due to incompetence or oversight his public defender didn't use.



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,412 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    It's not their job to provide a relief valve. Guilt or innocence of a state crime is not within the jurisdiction of the federal system. Even POTUS cannot provide any relief like a pardon, the federal oversight on the matter is purely on procedural matters. Does the AZ system fall within the procedural limitations and protections provided by the Constitution and Congress? If so, the federal hands are tied. The dispute between the majority and dissent is purely on the matter of this question.

    Surely that is the single most important reason for over-turning a conviction, particularly a sentence of death??

    No, it's the most important reason for finding a mechanism for overturning the conviction, however. The legal reasoning would be something like "Newly discovered evidence" or "error at trial." Determination of guilt or innocence is up to a jury. Then there are other options other than post-conviction motions to stay sentences, up to governors' pardons.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,589 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    But the SCOTUS ruling now says that the can't introduce New Evidence to support any "errors at trial"

    How exactly are you supposed to show that your lawyer didn't provide adequate council if you aren't allowed to show evidence of the things they didn't do?

    You can't say "My Lawyer never asked about XYZ evidence/witness etc." now , because if XYZ wasn't covered in the original court case , you can't bring it up.

    It's just nonsense..



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,412 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Not quite. The Arizona process does allow such new argument to be brought up as part of the post-conviction mechanism. If your trial lawyer screwed up, you're supposed to bring it up when you get your post-conviction hearing.

    The problem here is that of the various arguments presented by the prisoners at the post-conviction hearing, they left out a few which they then decided they wanted to bring up later in the process. This is a fairly basic principle in US jurisprudence, there's an evidentiary phase which is normally the lower court, and once the evidentiary phase is complete, it's generally too late to bring in new argument for the appeals phases which revolves only around matters of law, not of fact (Which is why sometimes cases will be remanded to lower courts for factual determinations.

    From the opinion

    "And the doctrine of procedural default—“an important ‘corollary’ to the exhaustion requirement,” Davila v. Davis, 582 U. S. ___, ___—generally prevents federal courts from hearing any federal claim that was not presented to the state courts “consistent with [the State’s] own procedural rules,”  "

    This is different from the idea that "new evidence has been discovered" which will allow a reboot of the process, but in this case, there was no 'new evidence discovered', because the facts were known before the post-conviction hearings, just not entered into the record. In effect, you're arguing "We lost the trial because my lawyer was incompetent, and we need a review" followed by "We lost the review because my new lawyer was also incompetent, we need a review to the review." Which, in theory, can go on ad infinitum.

    The bottom line, though, is that this is a procedural problem for Arizona to sort out, not the Federal Court.

    It's worth noting the Federal law on the matter which lays out when the prisoner can appeal to the federal courts, https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/28/2254



  • Registered Users Posts: 83,407 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I only get this kind of cogence and clarity from other people in message boards. Thanks NTM.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    Judge Thomas is the worst kind of Conservative extremist., the US government spends billions to spend on nuclear weapons but a judge thinks its too much of a burden to ask for a new trial if there's signicant evidence to show some one is innocent of a crime and the evidence was not presented at the first trial or the lawyer was not competent to put evidence on the record. It seems crazy that new evidence cannot be presented if it shows the person is innocent of a crime . And to say someone, s nnocence is not relevant in deciding if there should be a retrial.?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,583 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose




  • Registered Users Posts: 13,996 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Officially overturned. Not a surprise. I wonder if there are many pro-choice Americans who vote Republican.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61928898



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,119 ✭✭✭Sandor Clegane


    There is just no rime or reason to America, abortions are the devil, yet the mass slaughter of school children by guns is a god given right.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,837 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Putting a value on life is a good step for a society to take.


    Hopefully it will feed up through society in time.


    Killing should never be so blasé in a society.



  • Registered Users Posts: 83,407 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    How does opposing gun controls place value on life?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭Trigger Happy


    I was thinking the same thing myself. But a lot of Americans have a longstanding habit of voting for parties against their own interests. Poor people voting for GOP even though they are against universal healthcare and workers rights for eg. So am not convinced this will result in mass defections in red states.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,837 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    I think that decisions like today reaffirm the importance of life, that change in values will hopefully feed through society and we'll see more significant gun control.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,719 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    God be thanked. A ruling that should never have been made based on the penumbra of un-enumerated rights has been revoked.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,857 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    The right wing conservatives and Republicans want even more guns - they have no interest whatsoever in gun control.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,647 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Im flabbergasted you can't see the absolute hypocrisy in what you just posted.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,837 ✭✭✭✭Danzy




  • Registered Users Posts: 40,232 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    So the Supreme Court over ruled the Supreme Court.

    Country is fúcked.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,014 ✭✭✭Christy42


    I think you are seriously misjudging how little those who fought for this ruling care for the importance of life. The US as a whole, and Republican dominated states in particular, tend to lead the way in terms of maternal mortality rates.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,504 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Well, unfortunately, there will probably be riots in US cities tonight, I hope they beef up security for Supreme Court Justices, this is likely to get violent and personal.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,837 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Hopefully today marks a change in values, it may take years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • Registered Users Posts: 18,157 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    I assume someone has all the posts saved of those posters claiming no states were gonna ban abortions once it was struck down?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,234 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    This is the problem isn't it. People like this who believe in imaginary things invest so much in that imaginary thing that they think they have the absolute right over every other real person in the name of an imaginary entity. Such hypocrites.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,157 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    You mean importance of life until it leaves the womb? Once its out of there then republicans couldn't give a damn



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  • Registered Users Posts: 485 ✭✭guyfo


    Many mass shootings in your neck of the woods?



This discussion has been closed.
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