Legal consequences of Civil Service decision

25-06-2022 6:22pm #1

You may be aware of the discussions on the huge failings and gaps in Irelands capacity to defend itself or assert neutrality in its air and sea space, its exclusive economic area.

It is claimed that there is, as a result of the gaps, a secret agreement between Ireland and the UK for the RAF to operate in Irish airspace and if necessary to protect UK and Irish targets. No such agreement as far as I know, has ever been approved by the Oireachtas.

As this is an entirely hypothetical case (there is no evidence of such an agreement) what legal standing would such an agreement have? Would the civil servants who effectively made an agreement for the foreign armed forces to operate here be open to an accusation of treason for raising an armed force (the RAF) independently of the constitutional requirements? Or is it open to them to conclude any agreement they want?

ohnonotgmail · 25-06-2022 6:31pm

Are you sure such an agreement even exists? It makes more sense to me that the British do this because it is in their own interests to do so.

25-06-2022 6:35pm

so a hypothetical case where this has been discussed and agreed but not signed off by minister of defence?

edit- spotted this was in legal, my rather pithy observation as to the premise is therefore amended

25-06-2022 6:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119249079#Comment_119249079

As I have said in the OP there is no evidence to my knowledge that it does. Which is great for here as a legal hypothetical for discussion.

25-06-2022 6:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119249096#Comment_119249096

As I said there is no evidence of such which is important for here as it has no real world implications.

Would such an agreement be legitimate if agreed by a Minister of Defence alone? Or by the Cabinet alone without Oireachtas approval? Would it be a constitutional breach?

ohnonotgmail · 25-06-2022 6:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119249133#Comment_119249133

what part of the constitution do you think such an agreement might breach?

25-06-2022 6:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119249187#Comment_119249187

I don’t know. Which is why I have posted it here for more knowledgeable people to discuss.

A quick look shows 29;5;1 might be a start. 29;5;3 doesn’t seem to grant an exception

ohnonotgmail · 25-06-2022 7:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119249207#Comment_119249207

29;5;3 does seem to grant an exception to me. The problem I have with the idea of an agreement is what the agreement could possibly be. The british don't need an agreement with us to pursue russian planes down our atlantic coast. They do it because it is in their best interests.

25-06-2022 7:25pm

I can’t see how such an agreement which effectively surrenders control of airspace to a foreign power could be considered “technical or administrative”. An agreement that reduced the state to a client dependent on a foreign power without Oireachtas approval would seem to go far beyond technical or administrative.

The RAF could do what they want with impunity anyway but if such an agreement was that they had approval to fight in Irish skies we are where I am asking about. Would civil servants be treasonous for effectively raising a force “against” the state i.e. independently of the democratic and constitutional structures? I’m very curious as to what legal minds would make of this as a hypothetical.