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Ireland - lack of air and naval defence.

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,022 ✭✭✭sparky42


    The Ukrainians are asking for them as they have no navy, a relatively short coastline now and are at risk of an amphibious attack (though not likely). Sweden, Finland and the rest of the Baltics have them because of the enclosed nature of the Baltic sea and the Russians, however for example non of the Western European nations have land based ASM's still in service, the UK is likely going to have to strip the reserves of the decommissioned 23's and bash a truck mounting for them together.

    Our equipment was beyond antiquated when it was finally retired and given the threat profiles we face it's not the first or hundred and first thing we should look at. Hell with the performance of Russia so far if they were ordered to attack us they could easily end up attacking Iceland. Land based systems and the hardware to use them would first require the ability to defend our airspace and operate with supporting capabilities. We don't even have the start of that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    Absolutely not crucial to have a navy, to use strike missiles in ANY direction. The EU through PESCO has a policy on the necessity for over-the horizon targeting. The Kongsberg systems have been supplied to many nations including the USA. The Norwegians have a full Atlantic coast line and are leading manufacturers of such systems and are currently developing surveillance and defence systems for the NATO countries.

    I don't think Ireland is unique in requirements but is profligate in getting rid of Defence hardware because of in-house policy changes . Many decisions, in all branches, excised capabilities and expertise that should have been maintained. I was in Naval Service 31+ years and in that time we shed role capabilities three times, ASW, CMS, and on board Heliops. We need to gain an updating policy.

    As regards no countries using such systems, in 2019 the USMC has adapted a land based strike missile programme for use in the battlefield.



  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    The strike missile in a CDA, or land strike role, would be used against an attacking target in a surface to surface, or air to surface mode. Major Defensive systems which abound, are tasked with dealing with incoming long range missiles. In the Kongsberg configuration the unit is on a mobile platform and consists of 4 firing units and a command unit hooked into a surveillance command system. The missiles are 0.9mach with a range up to 300nm. An Arty mobile system would have a projectile speed of up to 2.5mach but a short range, maybe 20 miles. Both the EU and NATO have programmes for Missile Defence and Strike Missiles.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,022 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    The right noises from the Taoiseach but it has to be backed up by money and action.

     “In the sea and air around our island we have seen actions taken which have no innocent explanation. Óglaigh na hÉireann must have the capacity and the authority to carry out essential functions to protect our freedoms and those who share our values."



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,022 ✭✭✭sparky42


    He's said much the same to Ógra FF a couple of weeks ago, setting the ground for maybe a variant of LoA2 in June?



  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    Indeed an option level to be implemented. We also must maintain skills acquired and not continually throw the baby out with the bath water. The striving for shiny new objects have got rid of text book capabilities and neutralised our then responses. Some of the blame from that lies within our operational staffs and penny pinching decisions of civilians who buy cloth by the millimetre. We are standing at Day One of a relevant Defence Forces. Hope we follow realistic Defence O.B. and not just sample here and there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,022 ✭✭✭sparky42


    There was significant blind spots in the National Government at the time of the Treaty Talks, it’s only that the RAF weren’t represented at the talks that we didn’t have them permanently stationed here, as from the released documents while the Government (both the Dev wing and the Collins wing) had issues with the Treaty Ports there was no such concern about an airbase. And of course technically the U.K. had the right to ask for airbases for the Ports but never did.

    The GHQ of the day had “ambitions” but they were far beyond what the state could afford at the time, and certainly after the Civil War, after which the Government never supported huge spending on the DF anyway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    Exactly correct. In the navy we discarded the whole TAS Department, the TAS School and Simulator, and all the rating and officer appointments associated with Tactical Anti-Submarine. Hopefully we will be more prescriptive and follow the manual on forming a Defence Force



  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    The UK have a fully equipped frigate with latest AD missile system patrolling UK waters and I believe a CAP on known routes. They have the luxury of a shared ATC/Surveillance with the Civil side. We have Mount Gabriel and Eagle Island but no defence screens. Pity we let P31's 31,400 sq. mile surveillance capability die of neglect (Pi times 100nm squared). If the UK are making provisions for RU testing, we need to wake up.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    For the sceptics on Coastal defence just to remind people that a strike missile took out RU Cruiser MOSKVA and now the RU Frigate Admiral MAKAROV is on fire in the Black Sea believed hit according to Ukrainian info. Requirement is detection to seaward with tracking plus strike missile range about 300km. Their ability to come to grips with the CDA need was only achieved latterly in the second month of the Putin's war. It shows that real defence must cover all dimensions and routes of attack.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,022 ✭✭✭sparky42


    You are leaving out of course the fact that the US is providing the Ukrainians the intel needed to target and exploit the weaknesses of the Moskva. You are also ignoring the fact that the only maritime powers that could threaten us are Western ones without the massive issues of the Russians.



  • Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Times are changing, satellites are getting cheap. Maybe the DF gets one to help monitor.



  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    All of that and use of Intel or eyeballs is inconsequential to our problems. Specialist Irish Services which are equipment specific such as the Navy and Air Corps have been weaned away from frontline capabilities by an ongoing phase of equipment churning which removed fighting ships and aircraft in favour of miscellaneous patrol and ferry duties, good on optics and ok for housekeeping, ATCP and ATCA but no Defence Capability.

    We can joke and see no enemy and follow the CS view of more Garda and less soldiers and sailors. Policy is where we are at.



  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    At last my ship type has come home. designed by the VARD 7 series. It is a 125m OPV development with Lloyds. Approval in principle.

    It is outfitted with a mix of barrels, latest types, also AD and ship strike missiles, and fitted with additional " cubes" including torpedoes from either beam. Low signature design, fully stabilised, for defence/offence duties. Full suite of electronics for detection tracking and engagement. It has other logistical uses and space for extra bodies. Crew may be in need of squeezing to get to less than proposals. It also of course has a flight deck. That coupled with a 295 MPA, equipped with anti-ship missiles would close some gaps in our EEZ. See the videos put out by Vard.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Superb lookin ship. Ticks all the boxes. Just the ticket to send out if Jonny Russian comes prowlin around again. Hope we can get this one past the bean counters.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    This is the logical Eithne replacement. Sufficiently multirole but fundamentally designed around the bread and butter military taskings.

    As AM points out, crewing is an issue. But in theory, this is a bigger Beckett, so the core crew shouldn't be dissimilar from the current standard.



  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    Crewing has to be designed around full Action stations and the Duration of a particular action or Stand-To. This enables a ship to handle the balance of positions manned 24/7 and sleeping and feeding. Action messing is take away soup and sandwiches.

    The ship in question covers the full range of capabilities needed and is available in a 115m version also. If we want to be meaningful we have to aspire to ships of this type.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭Psychlops




  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    Don't know why I mentioned Eagle island. I needed to look at a NOTAM map which shows Nine radar points from Malin area in the North to Mount Gabriel in the South. It includes East and South Coast coverage. There are 4 on the West coast. There is a Bn near Achill Island as there are also on the Aran islands off Galway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    For many years Ireland has built up a multi-faceted digital/electronic Industry Base. Much of what these industries are doing are embedded systems that can be extended to military Control and management systems, including missile guidance systems. I remember being in Phillips Signaal in Henglo Holland, when we were on a course for the P31 systems. We were taken for a tour of the Factory and spoke to the team building the radars for the then new British Frigates in 1983. The radars were multi frequency travelling wave tube type to avoid frequency jamming. The brains of the radar were built by a company based in Galway.

    Given the proximity of Shorts, there is no reason why we couldn't manufacture Medium and short range missile systems, including controls and fixed and mobile mounts. There are many Irish digital components and whole systems within western battlefield systems.

    We could under license or within our own resources meet our own Defence needs and buy our specialist platforms as needed such as Aircraft and vessels.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Isn't there someone working on a IVF for Korea.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,381 ✭✭✭Man Vs ManUre


    What will we do if the pirates of the Caribbean get licqured up on rum and decide to sail here and attack us??



  • Registered Users Posts: 590 ✭✭✭Leonidas BL


    Get you new knickers from Pennies as you will probably have filled your old ones with ManUre.



  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    AS a reasonable interim measure we should equip our ships with the best Manpads and ATGMs in the Air Defence role (MISTRAL) and anti-ship role (JAVELIN or better) Say 4 of each with re-loads. Most portable systems can be used from any moving platform



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Sgt. Bilko 09


    The vast majority our manpads need replacing. The Javelin is to upgraded or replaced this year as it was delayed last year due to Covid.

    A lot of weapons are due for upgraded a during 2022 if you refer to the equipment development plan 2020-2024. (2020 to 2021 was a non runner due to restrictions).



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    I see the brits are now talking about upping defense spending from 2% to 2.5% as a result of the state of the world, Russia etc. Ireland should go straight to LOA 3 in my opinion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Sgt. Bilko 09


    That upgraded was brought forward to be complete before 2024, all these alterations necessary for a functional navy really make out situation look horrendously bad. I seen a clip online of a passenger vessel leaving the port in cork and a passenger filmed 7 out of 9 naval vessels roped up in port.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,022 ✭✭✭sparky42


    3 out of the fleet are permanently tied up, while 1 is in the dockyard being sandblasted at the moment, Beckett is gone for a month...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Sgt. Bilko 09


    Ah that would explain it, that video clip got a fair bit of traction



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,022 ✭✭✭sparky42


    It’s still an appalling situation that shows no sign of being addressed by either the DOD or Government, no question there.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    The PDF was designed to be where it is by the CS to balance the Books once Pay rates, allowances, and ration Structures were change by the Remuneration and conditions i.e. reduce Establishment by 5000 all ranks. They also got rid of much real estate.

    I listened to Patrick Sanders C.I.G.S. maiden speech this morning and it's theme is to MOBILISE and STRENGTHEN alongside their Allies in NATO /EU area with less dependence on US support the latter looking to defence in the Pacific area. He is starting NOW and sees budgetary figures in the order of 41Bn Sterling.

    A remarkable thing about his speech is that he appears to be also directing the Defence Civil Servants to meet immediate mobilisation factors. The immediate job is restocking and replacing munitions and equipment given away to Ukraine. He also wants to use a best in theatre list of effective equipment and stock up from those weapon systems. We are starting with a clean sheet whereby the Navy and Air Corps need to be restarted and tactically re-based as required. We first must get a clear indication of Armed levels to be achieved and do so on a short scale of less than 3 years. We must work with other Forces to ensure in an EU sense we fit into an Order of Battle.

    A brief list should include CDA GM system range 300nm, Fighter Aircraft, MPA's, embedded SHORADS for the Army, Upgrading ATGM systems, Surveillance Systems, Drone weapon delivery systems, UP Arming Naval vessels and acquiring suitable multi role vessels for AS, AD, and ASW duties. Aspire to use of conventional AIP submarines, the ultimate offensive weapon, and develop a minelaying and clearance capability. Harness Irish Industry to assist in weapon manufacture under licence or home produced.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    That pretty much hits the nail on the head, alongside upgrading of port and airfield infrastructure, decent pay and conditions accross the board, and decent accomodation and messing facilities to make the job attractive.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,022 ✭✭✭sparky42




  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    Not really. If our place in Europe means anything and we are willing to be part of a common future, including dealing with conflict, then we must play our part in a precise way. It could be that in an escalating phase that others may equip us to a required standard. We cannot remain outside when common enterprise is a hall mark of the EU.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,609 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Up to now , I would have said nah , boys toys , no real need ...

    But , between Russian aggression, our economies depenance on connection to the Europe,UK and the US,

    And also the prospect of a huge offshore energy sector , which in an era of energy crisis will need protecting , but I'd be targeting our spending ,

    And then we've to decide about our neutrality- just because we're safe on the western edge of Europe do we tell our European neighbours and partners that they're on their own ?

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The OP is a classic of its kind. It starts with a perfectly factual statement and a widely accepted truism of IR and military capacity. So far so good.

    The statement about Britain will upset many here but it is true if lacking in the nuance so beloved of some.

    It then proceeds to identify France as a possible ally. Again, no issues there as it is both EU, historically connected to Ireland’s struggle for independence and a naval power.

    Finally we get to the last part. The OP has shown knowledge of IR and current thinking on alliances and possible partners. And then talks about “stationing” an aircraft carrier in the Shannon Estuary. If I was to ask for a post to attack and undermine any reasonable and responsible discussion of Ireland’s defense fiasco it would look remarkably like that.

    So the question is Cui bono? NGOs anxious to protect their access to the funds siphoned from defence? Check. Left wingers determined to keep Ireland in a state of naive moralistic idiocy for ideological reasons? Check. Russia looking to keep NATOs western flank stretched to limit resource transfer elsewhere? Check. Irish politicians determined to keep public funds flowing to all sorts of local projects for the best of reasons, re-election? Check. Brexiteers looking to keep Ireland in a state of pliable dependency as a tool to weaken the EU? Check. Some lad looking for a laugh and it’s ingrained in most Irish to laugh at the concept of being able to defend themselves? Check.

    When you look at the list of those who gain from a belittlement of our Defence needs and our sovereignty and independence you understand how undermined we as a people are and how difficult the task of paying properly for a credible Defence will be.



  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    The Defence/Offence scene at sea is being carried out by no one country on solo missions. The Nato alliance have just complete Operation" Dynamic Mongoose" off the western Seaboard hunting 3 enemy submarines provided for the purpose, 2 conventional Subs and one Nuclear sub. They used half a dozen surface Frigates, with Helicopters and more than a dozen MPA flights. The RN Type 23 Frigates with updates can work seamlessly with the Poseidon MPA and obviously the other participants also. If we are to fit in to common enterprise then we must progress to fitting into actual Naval Tasks and try to be relevant to the Defence of Europe.

    An ARW Type exercise was carried out off the coast of Devon where Commando units were Helicasted from a number of Sea Stallions with their attack craft to carry out a simulated attack ashore.

    All countries are busy training and getting ready we are busy over the years unpicking skills, re-equipping by expedience, side-lining skills that are technically difficult or socially demanding. We may be facing more loss of property and training areas and a reduction in choices and flexibility. The only clear way forward is a clear Defence Plan to fit into European defence tasks now that Uk is no longer an EU member,



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The Summer Statement has set out the boundaries of budget spending. RTE saying about €2.7 billion left for new public spending after dealing with tax cuts and maintaining services. I’d guess a billion to go on cost of living crisis.

    So €1.7 billion left. That has to be divided up between the competing Ministers. Martin is no friend of Defence and is obsessed with sending money to the “shared island” unit to spend in what is and will remain a foreign jurisdiction. Population increase means more TDs for Dublin and Cork so expect spending there too try to win govt seats.

    What will Defence get? Pay issues sorted. Replacement of ships about to be retired probably with inshore type vessels. One medium / long haul aircraft. It’s Option 1 with ferocious denials it is because you know lads, there are bigger priorities. I’ll cut down to two fig rolls a day from three if I’m wrong.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Just saw online that they’ve signed off on a business plan for a metro link for Dublin. Initial estimate €9,000,000,000 to €12,000,000,000 (9b to 12b). Going by childrens hospital … 27b to 36b. Who knows.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Think it's meant to be over the next 12 years or so



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,022 ✭✭✭sparky42


    It is and likely to be longer tbh, but don’t let that get in the way of a rant. We know the broad figures now for the next budget, we know the talk has been about LoA2(+?) and we know it’s not going to be done in a single year.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You need to look at the figures. There is not enough there for anything beyond patching up option 1 issues. It will be dressed up as a multi year development but then you will have all the other priorities kick in and watch it wither.

    I could be wrong ofc. I just don’t see the numbers for anything else.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,022 ✭✭✭sparky42


    LoA2 is an extra €500 million a year, that is easily achievable and sustainable in the budget, it could be done even in one year, there’s been some mixed comments about going to €2 billion, which might fit the comments about parts of LoA3 but that’s fuzzy. LoA1 has been dismissed by everyone as a non runner, and politically LoA2 has clearly been the landing ground. Now of course that depends on the next government sustaining the Option but there’s nothing we can do about that right now.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,022 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Yep, an additional 50% increase on current spend, there's no real economic block to increasing it that much.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Checked the Report again. Estimate of option 2 is 1.5 bn. The 500m estimate is taking the current budget and subtracting it from this. The problem is there is so much remediation to be done on top of current grossly inadequate budget that €500m will very quickly shrink doing that.

    Watch how spend already done on “coastguard” vessels (by taking funds from Defence) is counted as “coastal Defence”.

    Political twisting about announcing funds several times and money already spent will make it sound more than it is.

    If I see a spend of around €800m extra next year that would be a start.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,022 ✭✭✭sparky42


    What "Coastguard Vessels"? There's the couple of new Revenue boats but that's not coming from the defence budget, the MRV is already factored into the Capital budget already. And no there's not going to be €800 million next year, or any lump sum, that has already been said multiple times.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I didn’t see any announcement of €500m. Who said the amount already?

    Edit: Coastguard vessels funded from 20m taken from Defence budget, media report Iirc.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The coastguard vessels are the revenue cutters: my error. The funding of these at circa 10m each was to be achieved through the extraordinary underspend on Defence returned to the exchequer.

    The MRV you mention is not capable of patrolling the EEZ and there is one in the pipeline.

    From what you are saying we are looking at remediation under option 1 and a lot of political spin around it. I hope I’m wrong.



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