Russia - threadbanned users in OP

nigeldaniel · 28-06-2022 4:56pm

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/28/russia-ukraine-war-updates.html

Long-term strategic planning for Ukraine. Even if France and Germany wobbled a bit for a few weeks they are slowly getting back onboard to support Ukraine 100%

Russian puppets and bootlickers can dismiss Ukraine's support all they like but Russia will not win this one and Putin will be long gone from view someday soon.

one quote from the above link

The U.K.’s Ministry of Defence said that Russia’s forces are becoming “hollowed out” in the Luhansk region

Yurt2 · 28-06-2022 4:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262857#Comment_119262857

That's basically it.

After launching the war, a lot of Russophiles and Russians having been initially giddy at quick victory, are now getting cold feet as they realise how badly wrong an extended war could get for Russia, and peace now could perhaps be framed as a type of victory. And we're cynically seeing them reporpouse themselves as peaceniks.

Slimy, dishonest and deluded as to what both Ukrainians and the West demand. A de-fanged Russia, gunshy and humiliated about ever launching a war like this again.

Curious_Case · 28-06-2022 4:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262110#Comment_119262110

Not on the ground in Ukraine though, he stressed that. Granted, things might change.

Wibbs · 28-06-2022 5:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262585#Comment_119262585

Ukraine post 2014 functioned as a democratic government. It did not engage in murder of civilians or ethnic cleansing.

Yeah, I have some magic beans for you. You should read the various UN reports out there before the Russian invasion of this year that made amnesiacs of us all rooting for the cowboys in the white hats. But again Russia have been the bigger dicks. As usual. In the early days the level of scum behaviour was about equal, but towards the end and closer to the Russian invasion, the scum were mostly on the Russian side.

is_that_so · 28-06-2022 5:08pm

There's this Russian MoD claim today.

https://twitter.com/lorenzo_tondo/status/1541789694018584578

Yurt2 · 28-06-2022 5:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262902#Comment_119262902

🤣

You think the National Endowment for Democracy overturns governments. With their hundred thousand dollar cheques to independent journalists. Boogyman trash.

Kerry only arrived in Kyiv in March, the month after Yanukovych bolted to Russia abandoning his office. How could he have been in Kyiv supporting the "ousting of the then Ukrainian government" when Yanukovych high-tailed it to Russia and the Ukrainian Parliment impeached and removed him? Yanukovych and his govenment was long gone before Kerry arrived. So no, not "demonstrable fact", Kremlinite propaganda.

This is classic, textbook, Kremlinite propaganda and disinformation with the NED boogyman thrown in for good measure.

The mask his slipped. You're no peacenik, just a dyed in the wool Putinbot disinformation peddler. So cut the pretense.

Wibbs · 28-06-2022 5:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262902#Comment_119262902

The Big picture is too complex. That requires more questions and the fear of being outside the group if your answers don't match the group's. Baddies and Goodies far easier. Orcs and all that moronic shíte. And some wonder how the Russians are falling for their side's bullshít? At least they have two excuses; understandable patriotism, however misplaced and a locked down media and propaganda from the womb.

Yurt2 · 28-06-2022 5:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262943#Comment_119262943

Again Wibbs, I think you're falling victim to 'split the difference' here.

The big picture isn't actually as complex as you make it out to be. And the moral component of this war, is pretty clear.

Wibbs · 28-06-2022 5:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262859#Comment_119262859

Yup. I think there's an element of insecurity that Kiev and Kievan Rus was the mother of Russia when Moscow was bogland, so the relationship has long been fraught.

Podge_irl · 28-06-2022 5:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262943#Comment_119262943

The "Big Picture" is incredibly simple. The details are complex.

The only people who actually wish to portray the Ukrainians as saints are those who then want to performatively declare "you know the Ukrainians aren't saints". Its tedious in the extreme

The report says cases of arbitrary detention in government-controlled territory continues to this day but have substantially decreased. On the other hand, Al-Nashif notes these practices persist to a high degree in the eastern separatist areas.

This is the only really relevant quote from what you've linked. Ukraine is not close to perfect but is moving in the right direction. That is exactly why Russia have invaded them.

Wibbs · 28-06-2022 5:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262629#Comment_119262629

So Russia didnt like what was going on in Donbas so they invaded the whole country trying to take Kiev, causing unbelivable destuction to people far more than Donbas and what was up with the Bucha massacre?

What was going on there was Russian hubris and utter stupidity from putin. Chess master me bollocks, he'd lose playing Snap!. Like I said very early on, if he had any brains and he actually looked at the state of his forces he should have "just" invaded Donbas and left Kyiv alone. Maybe even BS the UN that he was saving Russian lives etc. He might well have gotten away with it too, or at least the level of sanction would have likely been far lower. After all he did get away with Crimea.

odyssey06 · 28-06-2022 5:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262931#Comment_119262931

Where does that report document ethnic cleansing?

Or murder of civilians such as would amount to a 'war' against their own people?

Ukraine post 2014 functioned as a democratic government, and left to its own devices in Donbas would have restored peace and order.

I'm sure Ukraine doesn't have clean hands in fighting the civil war instigated by Russia in Donbas and dealing with armed rebellion. That war fomented by Russia was a dirty war. But that is a far cry from what was claimed in the posts I responded to.

Strazdas · 28-06-2022 5:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262939#Comment_119262939

The shopping mall looks like it took a direct hit from a missile. The first two amateur videos from the scene showed the entire mall ablaze from left to right and it looked for all the world like a missile had ploughed right into the middle of it.

Also, the amount of destruction inside looks like it was caused by a massive explosion, not damage from fire.

https://twitter.com/lesiavasylenko/status/1541520797713432576

Wibbs · 28-06-2022 5:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262939#Comment_119262939

Well we can put that in the large pile of Russian bullshít along with we invaded because Ukraine were going to cleanse the Donbas that week, they had biological weapons of mass destruction(always go with the classics) they were joining nato, there were French army guys in Mariupol, we killed fifty Ukrainian generals in an airstrike(that went off the radar fast) and so on.

timmyntc · 28-06-2022 5:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262916#Comment_119262916

Things may well change - G7 announcing a price cap on russian oil, but have no other oil to replace it worldwide.

OPEC announced they cannot even hit their current production targets, never mind increase. Libya look to stop exporting oil, Ecuador set to curtail production etc.

The oil sanctions hurt everyone else more than they hurt Russia, and the crippling energy and oil shortages we are likely to experience as a result will make escalation of the conflict more likely. a NATO v Russia confrontation becomes more likely as the self-inflicted energy shortages begin to bite.

Wibbs · 28-06-2022 5:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262946#Comment_119262946

Nope. I'm not "splitting the difference" here. Only someone drinking the koolaid of either side would say that. The fact I have to keep repeating the Russians are the major dicks in this and in an ideal world I'd drive them back to Moscow backs that up. I am fully pro Ukraine and fully anti Russian aggression in this. Your viewpoint is 100% polarised and any deviation from that you see as a threat to that narrative. Not just you of course and there are way worse on this score and have been from the start.

28-06-2022 5:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119263011#Comment_119263011

He comes across as unhinged, to be frank. I made it through two pages and he's already called people "losers", "shills", "Putinbots" etc. As you say, anybody with a view even slightly different to his own is unacceptable. He also calls others "propagandists", whilst posting the likes of this himself:

"If you care for your family in Russia, tell the young men to run from the conscription enforcers that are coming to the streets. They will be carrion for Ukrainian crows. They will find their eternal rest underneath the frozen Ukrainian groud. Not even a cross to mark their grave."

🤣

Also, isn't accusing posters of being a re-reg not against forum rules?

Ridiculous carry-on. Complete lack of self-awareness.

Yurt2 · 28-06-2022 5:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119263011#Comment_119263011

Regrettable that you feel that way about my viewpoint, but I don't think it should be lost on you that the poster you were replying to is pushing basic falsehoods and is tripping the light fantastic about coups, NED conspiracy theories, John Kerry and Banderas.

If you close your eyes and say all that stuff out loud, you're reading from a TASS or RT press release, and I don't think you should be fooled that you're dealing with someone who wants anything other than "peace" on Kremlin terms.

If that makes me 'polarised', so be it. But really, I'm calling bullsh*t on a poster who is posing as something as he's not.

I'll throw my anchor down on this point, I believe I'm 100 percent correct on this point. Anyone prattling on about Banderas instead of being alarmed at the increasingly brutality of Russia's actions is not on the level.

There's another flavour of Kool-aid you could fall victim to drinking yourself.

hairymaryberry · 28-06-2022 5:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119261002#Comment_119261002

The same intel that has been telling us Russian is running out of munitions since about 2 weeks into the war?

Any way some military analysis ran the numbers, Russia is firing an astonishing amount of artillery shells per weeks, the same rate that would deplete the US stores of shells in 10days, and if they even reduced the fire rate by 50% the UK could keep up for 8 days, this does not include the artillery of the donetsk and luhansk forces who are supplied by Russia.

All these western estimates are based on what’s stored in western arsenals, they have zero clue what the Russians have in storage, and that’s why they have been so wrong since day one, now factor in that Russia has committed only 200k troops and is holding back their latest weapons in case NATO does get involved, there simply is Zero chance of a Ukrainian victory, the longer the EU/US prolong this war the greater a disaster it becomes for the Ukrainian people.

The Ukrainian men who are been press ganged into service are going to be slaughtered fighting a professional force, we can see that already, it will only get worse and you are calling for more of it , disgraceful!

electric_sleep · 28-06-2022 5:55pm

I got my John Kerry's and my John McCains mixed up (it was 8 years ago)

Here is McCain at the protest that went on to oust the Ukrainian government, saying America is with you. Just imagine for a moment if a Russian senator gave a speech at the Jan 6 insurrection in the USA saying Russia is with you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93eyhO8VTdg&ab_channel=TheGuardian

Report on the far right in 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY&ab_channel=BBCNewsnight

Far right shutting down TV station in 2014 -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5GeBpZ5VHY&ab_channel=euronews

Svoboda wins 12% if seats in parliament in 2012 -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTjezCzo-BQ&ab_channel=JewishNewsOne

Far right burns pro russian protesters inside trade building 2014-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEWUADkyIiA&ab_channel=euronews

2014, March for Stepan Bandera. (SS Nazi who's moment participated in the holocaust, gassing 70k Poles and Jews)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8SGc0cZiag&ab_channel=euronews

Ukrainian military opens fire o Ukrainian civilians celebrating Russias victory day in Mariupol 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E18Jw0t5Cg&ab_channel=GrahamPhillips

Does this reflect your average Ukrainian on the street? No of course not. But are there other factors that led to this war? Absolutely.

Yurt2 · 28-06-2022 6:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119263077#Comment_119263077

It's a fact. If he cares for these young Russian men, he should tell them to go on the lamb from the conscription office. The only thing will happen is they'll end up maimed or as wormfood for nothing.

Ukrainian men are fighting for the survival of their country. They will be honoured and remembered for hundreds of years.

Russians if they are recalled at all as bandits, thieves and criminals.

zv2 · 28-06-2022 6:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262881#Comment_119262881

Putin does not care one jot for the Russian speaking separatists. If he did he would not be blowing them to pieces. They were used as an excuse for a war of conquest. Separatism is a dangerous thing.

zv2 · 28-06-2022 6:08pm

I don't like the sound of this

https://twitter.com/CanadianUkrain1/status/1541830617255526400?s=20&t=cbP-3WbpxNtdVEOaGJ_A5g

Ten of Swords · 28-06-2022 6:13pm

@hairymaryberry do not post in this thread again

odyssey06 · 28-06-2022 6:13pm

McCain went there to bring the world's attention to it, so that the government would think twice about using violence against the protestors.

A democratically elected senator attending a peaceful protest.

“What we're trying to do is try to bring about a peaceful transition here, that would stop the violence and give the Ukrainian people what they unfortunately have not had, with different revolutions that have taken place – a real society. This is a grassroots revolution here – it's been peaceful except when the government tried to crack down on them, and the government hasn't tried that since. I'm praising their ability and their desire to demonstrate peacefully for change that I think they deserve.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/15/john-mccain-ukraine-protests-support-just-cause

“We are here,” said Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), “to support your just cause: the sovereign right to determine [Ukraine’s] own destiny freely and independently. And the destiny you seek lies in Europe.”

They (both US and European politicians but none in official capacities) were there to support Ukraine's right to determine its own destiny.

Meanwhile Russia was declaring economic war on Ukraine for daring to sign a trade deal with the EU.

The EU trade deal, the removal of the President, represented the democratic will of the Ukranian people and parliament. It was not some minority, violent far right coup. The regime no longer had any mandate from the people to govern, because of their blocking of the trade deal and their crackdown on the protestors.

This was a protest with large, diverse, and widespread approval across Ukrainian society. A minority far right coup does not get hundreds of thousands of people onto the streets.

Ukraine uprising was no neo-Nazi power-grab

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/13/ukraine-uprising-fascist-coup-grassroots-movement

odyssey06 · 28-06-2022 6:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119263140#Comment_119263140

You neglected to mention what else happened in Mariupol on Victory Day 2014? You didn't think that was relevant or were just attempting to deceive?

The shootings had nothing to do with this?

'Civilians' with guns attempting to storm police station.

Is the a traditional Victory Day celebration?

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/russias-victory-day-takes-deadly-turn-ukrainian-city-mariupol-n101176

Podge_irl · 28-06-2022 6:26pm

But are there other factors that led to this war? Absolutely.

These events had nothing to do with leading to the war, bar being potentially convenient excuses. They are failures of the Ukrainian state, a state that is still coming to terms with independence after brutal repression and rampant corruption within the USSR. The attempts to correct these failures is what angers the Russians so much.

electric_sleep · 28-06-2022 6:27pm

The US doesn’t get to say when a protest becomes a legitimate revolution against a democratically elected government regardless of how much they’d like to see the current one go.

Nor does Russia for that matter.

The above videos were to back up points I made earlier where I was called a liar for saying the Americans were speaking at the maidan coup, and for saying that pro Russian Ukrainians were burned alive in Odessa by the far right, or that the new Ukraine began persecuting Russian- Ukrainians.

Calling out Kiev for its sins doesn’t absolve Russia, but let’s stop pretending Kiev is some paragon of progressive democracy.

Wibbs · 28-06-2022 6:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119263111#Comment_119263111

I'd be willing to bet the military analysts are Russian. The Russian media and supporters are also big on claiming Russia is keeping her "latest weapons" wunderwaffen as it were in reserve. And for such a "professional force" ranged against "press ganged" amateurs they failed utterly miserably to take Kyiv after throwing the kitchen sink in the attempt. They couldn't even secure an airfield with the best of their commando and special forces. And in the East closest to supply lines and with more on the ground support and an environment much better suited to their warfare and in summer they're advancing extremely slowly. Their great victory over Sievierodonetsk, a town of 100,000(or used to be) took over a month and they had to grind it into rubble to do it. How does all that work with professional soldiers and according to your "estimates" three times the amount of the US' entire stock of artillery in play?

Strazdas · 28-06-2022 6:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119263255#Comment_119263255

Most of the talking points you are giving here have come straight from Putin and the Kremlin. "Eight years of genocide in the Donbas region", Nazis in the Ukrainian government, oppression of Russian citizens in Ukraine....it's all Putin's words.

Macron says in his final conversation with the dictator before the invasion, Putin was ranting and raving for ages about Donbas and Ukrainian "atrocities" and that he couldn't get him off the subject.

Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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