Russia - threadbanned users in OP

You never know. There is strong evil coming from the Kremlin. It stirs people, even those as self serving as Boris.

The Ukrainian people have that say, and that is the right John McCain was there to support. To bring the world's attention on what was happening in Ukraine so that the regime knew cameras were on them.

So the "US" did not. In 2014 John Kerry was Secretary of State. So if you said John Kerry was there and saying X that is very different to John McCain. Who are "The Americans"? It's not just a case of mixing up names. The roles matter. John McCain had no executive role in the US administration in 2014.

You keep running away from the evidence that there was widespread diverse and majority support in Ukraine for the trade deal, for protests, and for the removal, by parliament, of the President and his administration. It was not some US backed far right minority coup and it is spreading a lie to present it in that manner. John McCain spoke to hundreds of thousands of protestors who had already taken to the streets, he didn't magic them up out of thin air.

You keep running away from the question of why the President didn't sign the trade deal with the EU.

Just because a president is democratically elected, doesn't mean he gets to rule as an autocrat. The president made himself illegitimate by his actions.

You're not calling out Ukraine for its sins. You are tarnishing Ukranian democracy with an original sin which you have fabricated.

Ukraine is a progressive democracy. It is a democracy that is progressing in the direction of the EU, of human rights, of basic freedoms, away from the orbit of Russian gangster corruption and fascist dictatorship. It can only do that free of Russian dominance and subversion, of the type of subversion Russia attempted in Donbas, illegally sending in troops and Ukraine had to respond to with force. In that fight it does not have clean hands, but it is only in that fight because of Russia's illegal actions in the region. Zelensky is a Russian speaker, as are others in his administration. This is not some persecution or genocide of Russian speakers, but an attempt to defend Ukrainian identity and sovereignty against Russian subversion.

Any moral equivalence of Ukranian democracy, for all its flaws, with Russian gangster fascism is completely without merit or foundation.

You posted complete lies about ethnic cleansing and genocide in Donbas by 'New' Ukraine, parroting Russian propaganda.

https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-russia-falsely-blames-ukraine-for-starting-war/a-60999948

I condemned Russia and spoke about post coup/revolution (delete which one least offends you) Ukraines actions leading up to this war, and mentioned US and Russian influences in Ukrainian unrest since 2014.

I spoke up in favour of a peace treaty, I mentioned the sufferings of the people of Donbas being caught in the middle of all this. I’m clearly not a fan of Kievs decisions since 2014, but that doesn’t make me a Putin bot. There are many factors in this war and just because Putin uses them as starting points for his propaganda doesn’t mean we can’t discuss it.

What is the rule? Once Putin mentions a topic as justification for his invasion we need to instantly dismiss all talk about this topic forever as propaganda? You know how propaganda works right? It’s built on real world events and then blown up/distorted to suit your narrative. It’s not as effective if it’s 100% fiction.

So try to separate out someone mentioning a well known and well documented societal issue in Ukraine, such as the far right role in the 2014 coup/revolution , with someone using this as justification for the invasion. Come on, use that grey matter for something other than graphic descriptions of how Russian soldiers will die in Ukraine.

There are endless posts condemning Russia, the whole western world is doing it, take it as a given that I condemn them too, I just didn’t see the point of going on and on about it in what’s already an echo chamber. Russian invasion = bad! Ok , happy? Sorry if I don’t demonstrate the level of hatred towards Russians in general as you would like me to. And sorry if all of this shakes your world view so much that you have to reach straight for the ‘putinbot’ button rather than actually demonstrating why I’m wrong. Resorting to insulting me because I bring up uncomfortable points is also pretty lame. Have a nice evening.

You didn't "bring up uncomfortable points". You drew a moral equivalence between Ukraine and Russia in the 2022 conflict by calling them both murderous regimes.

Nobody says Ukraine in 2014-2021 was a paragon of virtue. But to present Ukraine and Russia as morally equivalent can only be done via reliance on Russian propaganda lies, which you repeat here.

I didn’t say they were morally equivalent, I just said I’m not a fan of Kievs government and condemned some of their actions, particularly supporting and arming far right militias, and the persecution of ethnic Russians in Donbas.

This doesn’t mean I support Moscow. Some people seem to be having a hard time computing this.

Weasel words, you said a lot more than that, including accusations of ethnic cleansing of ethnic Russians which have no basic in reality.

You are only walking back the Russian propaganda lies you posted because they has been challenged on this thread.

Why are we having a hard time computing it?

You wrote "it's murdering regime v murdering regime", a clear attempt at drawing a moral equivalence between them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119262115/#Comment_119262115

Well done to him for taking action. A lot of evidence of Russian interference in the no-confidence motion he faced.

I stand by everything I said. Kiev is 100% a murdering regime as is Moscow.

Ukraine are morally in the right to defend their homeland against invaders, so the moral comparison ends there. Russia are on the wrong side of this war. Nothing I’ve said is inconsistent with that position which I’ve held throughout.

You are 100%correct on the West underestimating the store of Russian weaponry, it may be old and by Western standards near primitive but a 155 shell from 1960 is still going to be a problem if they are landing daily in thousands .

Russia is not holding back its latest weapons in case of NATO and NATO are not going to care if they do, the gap is still incredible in terms of capabilities.

Could Russia beat Poland, hard to see it, could Russia even beat the tiny force that the US have in Europe, not a hope.

Russia have a lump hammer Army, Brutal, rough but it can be deadly against a smaller opponent.