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Dublin Pride ends media partnership with RTE over Liveline's Gender Identity discussion

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    It took me a few minutes to even type that, first I went with he, then he/she, then she. If I was calling she/he Rory I'd probably get a card for misgendering or something, so I went with what I thought was the the safest option

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • Registered Users Posts: 155 ✭✭I Blame Sheeple




  • Registered Users Posts: 21,053 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    yeah it's a funny one and i took equal measure in replying ....as far as i'm aware he's just a gay actor , a drag act.


    perhaps the character "panti" is a she



  • Registered Users Posts: 414 ✭✭dorothylives


    He could at least be honest and call it what it is, the result of Islamic terrorism against LGBT people. Islam is highly intolerant of homosexuality. Isn't it illegal in pretty much every Muslim country? Perhaps he should take himself off to Qatar for example and spout this trans stuff there, see if he gets a round of applause or thrown off a building and stoned to death for it. The same idiot would be calling for open borders for every Ahmed and Mohammad who want a better life.

    The evil bastard who committed that cowardly attack did it because his religion told him it's the right thing to do. Nobody start on me with the Islamophobia accusations, it is what it is and the Koran says what it says. Typical of this chap to ignore the elephant in the room. Jesus wept, can anyone remember the last time there was an Islamic terrorist attacker who wasn't described as mentally ill? Seems to be a hell of a problem with mental health issues in the Muslim community. Unless of course it's nothing to do with mental health...



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    When you start blaming Liveline debates rather than radical Islamic extremism, you realise that the proverbial moral compass might need retuning.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭lee_baby_simms


    He’s as much of a woman as Dame Edna Everage is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    They are not in the same league.

    Be fair Dame Edna was/is funny and the character has wit and charm.

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    He's as much of a woman as a transwoman is (biologically)

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Registered Users Posts: 654 ✭✭✭ingalway




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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Could argue the same about comparisons of today's Israeli settlements to German lebansraum. While I absolutely agree that accusing every authoritarian movement of being Nazi-reminiscent is overdone, tired and in this case inaccurate (those flags are hanging *above* the street like bunting, people - it's not as if they're being held on sigils by a mob), the suggestion that a group which faced historical oppression cannot be guilty of the same oppression today is dangerously censorious in and of itself. In fact, it's not uncommon both on the interpersonal level and the demographic or societal level for the abused to subsequently and tragically replicate their abusers' behaviour when dealing with others.

    Agree that the comparison is hyperbolic and inaccurate, just disagreeing specifically with the idea that a group which was historically a victim of X cannot be accused n the present day of X. That rather dangerously gives said group a get out of jail free card, which again if you look to the Israel example is used routinely and has caused absolute havoc in various political movements in recent years.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    the suggestion that a group which faced historical oppression cannot be guilty of the same oppression today is dangerously censorious in and of itself.

    Completely agree with the principle that the bullied can become the bullies.

    That's a universal principle, I'd like to think.

    I just think that, in this case with the reference he is making, it corrupts the debate and actually acts as a distraction from the real and legitimate and valid points that could be made: the points he and I have agreed upon on many issues regarding the so-called LGBT community.

    Godwin's law is always a terrible argument.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Godwin's law is always a terrible argument.

    No, it's simply a badly abused argument framed by people with little awareness of what's involved, or by people seeking to trigger others.

    History has lessons. That's obvious..

    Godwin himself has also criticized the overapplication of the law, claiming that it does not articulate a fallacy, but rather is intended to reduce the frequency of inappropriate and hyperbolic comparisons. Godwin wrote that "Although deliberately framed as if it were a law of nature or of mathematics, its purpose has always been rhetorical and pedagogical: I wanted folks who glibly compared someone else to Hitler to think a bit harder about the Holocaust."[13]



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 23,640 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    @Mic 1972 do not post in this thread again



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,859 ✭✭✭growleaves


    I remember years ago a music journalist called the display of thousands of Welsh flags at a Stereophonics concert 'fascistic'.

    I felt the same way about large Ukrainian blue and yellow flags draped everywhere in Dublin city. Neutrality was wiped out without an argument by sheer symbolism. (I'm not a 'Putinbot' before anyone says)

    Bombarding people and overwhelming their senses with omnipresent flag displays is a tactic obviously borrowed from totalitarian regimes and is nakedly propagandistic.

    Not that that means, or that I think it means, that anyone who does that is then going borrow other or all tactics and features of 20th century regimes. Or that we're all cowering in fear. We're not. But it's not great all the same.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Right, but the solution to a problem that you dislike - whether political or social - is persuasive argument and debate that takes the hearts and minds of the population.

    Referring to the most obscene regimes in human history is counter to that goal. It never works. At best, it re-affirms the positions of only a tiny cohort of extremists who'll agree on the most wacky interpretations of a problem. But it doesn't further the debate. It's just needlessly corrosive.

    Let's put the shoe on the other foot. Imagine if TRAs started comparing their deemed opposition as "fascists" and so on. We'd rightly object to that, and for good reason too.

    When debate on a matter debases itself to the point of referring to Hitler and the Nazis, you start to realise that something has gone wrong.

    And that applies to both sides of the debate, including mine.

    It's about time we're honest about that, rather than trying to justify it with the lamest kind of associative excuse.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    TBH I always find excessive flag usage crass. I mean replace them with Union jacks or the Tri colour any flag really. It's clearly and excessive amount. But I cant help but think it's fake. If it's not it's just me.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Okay, then the comparison should be the birth of fascism in Italy with Mussolini, which has none of the direct associations with the Nazi's, but employed the same manner of propaganda, and grand gestures. Mostly taken from Ancient Rome, and transplanted into that period (A lot of what the Nazi's did for propaganda was first done in Italy before them)

    I get what the other posters are talking about. Symbolism matters. Throughout the history of empires, and nations, the imagery of flags, parades, etc all were effectively used to gather groups together under one symbol. And I can also see the argument that LGBTQ is going the same way, because Trans advocates/activists are often aggressive to the point of being militant in how they push their beliefs.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    because Trans advocates/activists are often aggressive to the point of being militant in how they push their beliefs.

    Yes, I agree - but Nazism, really!?

    This is so silly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    They remind me of warhammer 40k tbh. Like from some Imperial guard legion. What happened to the less intrusive Rainbow one.


    Oh and can someone explain the v parts I think I get the brown and black ones. what are the others. also what is the circle for on the yellow background. I thought flag making had specific rules like heraldry ?



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The UK has demonstrated that maternity legislation can and should defend the existence of the word "woman" (and other healthcare matters).

    Perhaps Ireland should follow suit. I very much doubt our political class have any intention to, though - especially after their reaction to the Liveline debates.




  • Registered Users Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Fair enough. No advocate for women or trans people has proposed the removal in Ireland by the way. Trans groups and mainstream women's groups agree with keeping the term woman in the legislation.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,451 ✭✭✭AllForIt




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Nah, it's a little slight of hand by Anna.

    Nobody wants the word woman removed....... as long as woman also means "some biological men".



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    No - Extending it to say women and pregnant people. Some women claim they are being erased - this addresses their concerns.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's cultural appropriation is what it is. I thought you'd be against that.

    Only women can be pregnant. That's the point. A pregnant person is a biological woman. A biological man can't be pregnant (although I did see a documentary once where Arnold Schwarzenegger got pregnant, but it was debunked after a fact check)



  • Registered Users Posts: 877 ✭✭✭DarkJager21


    There's no such thing as pregnant people, only the female of the species can carry a child and they are called Women. If someone gets offended by that, I would have much more concern for the environment that child will be growing up in - it takes a certain level of emotional intelligence and maturity to parent, and someone who's more self concerned with their "terminology" is nowhere near that bar



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    Presumably very few parents on this thread then 😆, given that a significant percentage of folks being concerned about "terminology" (sic).



  • Registered Users Posts: 877 ✭✭✭DarkJager21


    Attempts to make fun of my post but ends up making no sense at all? You do know what (sic) means also and that it's not a brush off for things you don't understand? 🤔 Try again



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,403 ✭✭✭archfi


    Anyway, in relation to the topic has there been any public disclosure of the 'talks' between RTE and this lobby group? And will we, the public, ever be allowed to have full disclosure?

    Have they even 'chatted' yet?

    (Quote marks used as I don't believe it would ever be an exchange of views but more than likley a diktat by the lobby group)

    The issue is never the issue; the issue is always the revolution.

    The Entryism process: 1) Demand access; 2) Demand accommodation; 3) Demand a seat at the table; 4) Demand to run the table; 5) Demand to run the institution; 6) Run the institution to produce more activists and policy until they run it into the ground.



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