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Dublin Pride ends media partnership with RTE over Liveline's Gender Identity discussion

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Could argue the same about comparisons of today's Israeli settlements to German lebansraum. While I absolutely agree that accusing every authoritarian movement of being Nazi-reminiscent is overdone, tired and in this case inaccurate (those flags are hanging *above* the street like bunting, people - it's not as if they're being held on sigils by a mob), the suggestion that a group which faced historical oppression cannot be guilty of the same oppression today is dangerously censorious in and of itself. In fact, it's not uncommon both on the interpersonal level and the demographic or societal level for the abused to subsequently and tragically replicate their abusers' behaviour when dealing with others.

    Agree that the comparison is hyperbolic and inaccurate, just disagreeing specifically with the idea that a group which was historically a victim of X cannot be accused n the present day of X. That rather dangerously gives said group a get out of jail free card, which again if you look to the Israel example is used routinely and has caused absolute havoc in various political movements in recent years.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    the suggestion that a group which faced historical oppression cannot be guilty of the same oppression today is dangerously censorious in and of itself.

    Completely agree with the principle that the bullied can become the bullies.

    That's a universal principle, I'd like to think.

    I just think that, in this case with the reference he is making, it corrupts the debate and actually acts as a distraction from the real and legitimate and valid points that could be made: the points he and I have agreed upon on many issues regarding the so-called LGBT community.

    Godwin's law is always a terrible argument.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Godwin's law is always a terrible argument.

    No, it's simply a badly abused argument framed by people with little awareness of what's involved, or by people seeking to trigger others.

    History has lessons. That's obvious..

    Godwin himself has also criticized the overapplication of the law, claiming that it does not articulate a fallacy, but rather is intended to reduce the frequency of inappropriate and hyperbolic comparisons. Godwin wrote that "Although deliberately framed as if it were a law of nature or of mathematics, its purpose has always been rhetorical and pedagogical: I wanted folks who glibly compared someone else to Hitler to think a bit harder about the Holocaust."[13]



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,322 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    @Mic 1972 do not post in this thread again



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,957 ✭✭✭growleaves


    I remember years ago a music journalist called the display of thousands of Welsh flags at a Stereophonics concert 'fascistic'.

    I felt the same way about large Ukrainian blue and yellow flags draped everywhere in Dublin city. Neutrality was wiped out without an argument by sheer symbolism. (I'm not a 'Putinbot' before anyone says)

    Bombarding people and overwhelming their senses with omnipresent flag displays is a tactic obviously borrowed from totalitarian regimes and is nakedly propagandistic.

    Not that that means, or that I think it means, that anyone who does that is then going borrow other or all tactics and features of 20th century regimes. Or that we're all cowering in fear. We're not. But it's not great all the same.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Right, but the solution to a problem that you dislike - whether political or social - is persuasive argument and debate that takes the hearts and minds of the population.

    Referring to the most obscene regimes in human history is counter to that goal. It never works. At best, it re-affirms the positions of only a tiny cohort of extremists who'll agree on the most wacky interpretations of a problem. But it doesn't further the debate. It's just needlessly corrosive.

    Let's put the shoe on the other foot. Imagine if TRAs started comparing their deemed opposition as "fascists" and so on. We'd rightly object to that, and for good reason too.

    When debate on a matter debases itself to the point of referring to Hitler and the Nazis, you start to realise that something has gone wrong.

    And that applies to both sides of the debate, including mine.

    It's about time we're honest about that, rather than trying to justify it with the lamest kind of associative excuse.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    TBH I always find excessive flag usage crass. I mean replace them with Union jacks or the Tri colour any flag really. It's clearly and excessive amount. But I cant help but think it's fake. If it's not it's just me.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Okay, then the comparison should be the birth of fascism in Italy with Mussolini, which has none of the direct associations with the Nazi's, but employed the same manner of propaganda, and grand gestures. Mostly taken from Ancient Rome, and transplanted into that period (A lot of what the Nazi's did for propaganda was first done in Italy before them)

    I get what the other posters are talking about. Symbolism matters. Throughout the history of empires, and nations, the imagery of flags, parades, etc all were effectively used to gather groups together under one symbol. And I can also see the argument that LGBTQ is going the same way, because Trans advocates/activists are often aggressive to the point of being militant in how they push their beliefs.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    because Trans advocates/activists are often aggressive to the point of being militant in how they push their beliefs.

    Yes, I agree - but Nazism, really!?

    This is so silly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    They remind me of warhammer 40k tbh. Like from some Imperial guard legion. What happened to the less intrusive Rainbow one.


    Oh and can someone explain the v parts I think I get the brown and black ones. what are the others. also what is the circle for on the yellow background. I thought flag making had specific rules like heraldry ?



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The UK has demonstrated that maternity legislation can and should defend the existence of the word "woman" (and other healthcare matters).

    Perhaps Ireland should follow suit. I very much doubt our political class have any intention to, though - especially after their reaction to the Liveline debates.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,148 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Fair enough. No advocate for women or trans people has proposed the removal in Ireland by the way. Trans groups and mainstream women's groups agree with keeping the term woman in the legislation.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,524 ✭✭✭AllForIt




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Nah, it's a little slight of hand by Anna.

    Nobody wants the word woman removed....... as long as woman also means "some biological men".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,148 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    No - Extending it to say women and pregnant people. Some women claim they are being erased - this addresses their concerns.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's cultural appropriation is what it is. I thought you'd be against that.

    Only women can be pregnant. That's the point. A pregnant person is a biological woman. A biological man can't be pregnant (although I did see a documentary once where Arnold Schwarzenegger got pregnant, but it was debunked after a fact check)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 925 ✭✭✭DarkJager21


    There's no such thing as pregnant people, only the female of the species can carry a child and they are called Women. If someone gets offended by that, I would have much more concern for the environment that child will be growing up in - it takes a certain level of emotional intelligence and maturity to parent, and someone who's more self concerned with their "terminology" is nowhere near that bar



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    Presumably very few parents on this thread then 😆, given that a significant percentage of folks being concerned about "terminology" (sic).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 925 ✭✭✭DarkJager21


    Attempts to make fun of my post but ends up making no sense at all? You do know what (sic) means also and that it's not a brush off for things you don't understand? 🤔 Try again



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭archfi


    Anyway, in relation to the topic has there been any public disclosure of the 'talks' between RTE and this lobby group? And will we, the public, ever be allowed to have full disclosure?

    Have they even 'chatted' yet?

    (Quote marks used as I don't believe it would ever be an exchange of views but more than likley a diktat by the lobby group)

    "Not to have a correct political orientation is like not having a soul."

    ~Mao Zedong, 1958



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,416 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    I don't think rte should.

    Loads of free advertising and then shot down over something silly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭archfi


    They were meant to meet last week or so which cancelled the virtue signalling Oireachtas committee bullshyte.

    I think we all need to know what is/was discussed and the outcome.

    "Not to have a correct political orientation is like not having a soul."

    ~Mao Zedong, 1958



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,416 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    I think we have an idea alright. Dosh and do as I say.

    Discussion and discourse is an important part of a national broadcaster remit(was about to add impartiality).

    Note: I've not many issues with pride, but it's got a bit mental for me.

    Being put over a barrel can lead to leg swings.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    Lol of course I know what it means. I'm quoting the erroneous/out of place use of quotes and didn't want anyone thinking they were mine. May it be suggested that it is you that doesn't understand? No need to try again, it was a frivolous post I made that nailed the absurdity of most if this thread.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    Would it be in the public interest to see where the money is actually going in these Pride oriented organisations. Some seem well fishy. Would some be more of a slush fund for the various employees ? As I mean the actually size of the community is quite small vs the sheer number of NGO's



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,396 ✭✭✭raclle


    Not trying to be funny and correct me if I'm wrong but what I think @Annasopra means is pregnant people, as in gay trans-men without the surgery obviously?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yeah.

    Women.

    I think pregnancy is the prime example of when biology should take precedence over delusion



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Liberty_Bear


    The accounts can be viewed the Registration of Friendly Socities or the Charity Regulator...do a deep dive maybe...on a side note, there could be little rainbow coloured aliens seeking to push their agenda..nanu nanu



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    And that's it right there, the reason why engagement in threads like this, on sites like this is pointless.

    Same old dismissive rhetoric. Open mockery and (ironically for people who bleat on about biology so much) a basic failure to recognise that transgender isn't some form of delusional thinking.

    What if the science backs up something different? What about being open minded enough to consider that as possible? It's really not very sound thinking, and certainly not scientific way of thinking to be so readily dismissive.

    But no, instead there is filibuster and noise about the erosion of women (what tripe!) or endless obsessions about dicks in changing rooms or other half baked theories that serve no purpose other than spreading fear for the sake of it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    I don't have the time or inclination to do so. Did we miss the "Public Interest" part ?



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Hey KM, how many genders do you recognise?

    I'm guessing only two more than I do. So get off your high horse.

    Stating fact is not mockery. I can't help if you are offended by reality.

    I'm not open-minded enough to believe that a biological man can give birth or be pregnant and it's delusional to think otherwise? Are you serious?

    I'm spreading absolutely no fear. But nice of you to quote me as an example of someone who is. What fear am I stoking? The abject horror that people may think biology is more important than feelings, especially during pregnancy?

    I am openly critical of gender theory. Not about dicks in changing rooms.

    Nice strawman.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Liberty_Bear


    You said


    Would some be more of a slush fund for the various employees ?

    Now you are telling me you are too lazy to back up what you wrote..poor form...



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    was The Gay and Lesbian Equality Network (Glen) not shut down due to irregularities ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    No stawman. That's just another thing that often gets confused about these parts.

    I'm not offended in the slightest, certainly not about random people's made up opinions... Why would I be?



    Edit. I love the actual working examples of strawmen you give in your post. Can I assume you typed that ironically, or was it just (another) misunderstanding?

    Honestly you people crack me up sometimes lol



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You seemed upset in your last post.

    You seemed to highlight my post as a reason why it's pointless for progressive and morally untouchable people like yourself to engage in conversations.

    Because I said it was delusional that biology should take a backseat to gender theory when it comes to documentation about maternity (sorry paternity too....)

    Perhaps I read it wrong.

    (I also love that you tried to say "made up opinion" as if it's a bad thing. I did make up my own opinion. By using facts and logic. Says a lot that you think making your own opinion is a bad thing.)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Liberty_Bear


    Ah yeah should have just said that...yeah they stopped in 2017



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    So you agree then as tax payers and charity contributors A casting of light into this sector is needed ? 2017 is hardly last century.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭Gant21


    We have a mountain to climb



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    If you think I seemed upset, then it's no wonder why you keep getting confused and talk about feelings over facts etc.. you don't seem to know what either are.

    I know you think that you use facts and logic, it's really quite sweet. As regards to your morally untouchable quip.. it's just another of your weak "debating" tactics that try and paint your opponents in one light.

    It's the same schtick as all the comments about hysterical TRAs etc and being emotional etc.

    I find it really quite funny that you, and others like you, think people fall for it tbh.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Liberty_Bear


    If there is misuse of public funds then certainly,


    I saw a former GAA player was arrested for people smuggling last week - one wonders how much smuggling some GAA players might be doing....



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's a problem with NGOs in general.. and you'll find that many of them aren't operated by the people they supposedly represent. In any case, though, you're not going to get anywhere on this. You'll get access to their funding, but... you have no power to influence anything beyond that.

    It's government policy to support as many NGOs as possible, and they end up providing a wide range of services that the government doesn't want to provide themselves, in addition, to adding to the virtue points garnered by the politicians (at least until an NGO forgets itself and bites the hand that feeds them)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    And yes, "made up opinion" (in lieu of facts).. you know real facts, based in science. Not randomly sticking the word biological in front of every other noun and pretending you understand biology.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    Interesting point. But Former GAA is not the same as an Active charity at the time.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    ..........

    Are you genuinely saying that my "opinion" that only an actual woman (definition being an adult human female) can become pregnant is "in lieu of facts" and not based in science?

    Lol.

    No.

    THAT'S IT RIGHT THERE.

    THAT'S why your engagement on here is pointless.

    Clown world.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You've just described the Trans debate.. Feelings over facts. Theories over facts. And yet, when faced with the facts, you dismiss them.

    Only a woman can get pregnant and give birth to a child. Fact.

    Transwomen cannot. Fact.

    Transmen, possibly could IF they retained an intact uterus (unaffected by the testosterone treatments), but they'd hardly be men then... they'd still be women, undergoing the transition.. and even then, they wouldn't be becoming men.. with a penis capable of getting someone pregnant. And no, using sterile people doesn't give you a gotcha moment. If you value logic and science/biology, even slightly.

    But then, TBH, considering those who advocate the Trans issues... I don't believe that they do value science/biology/ or demonstrative facts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Liberty_Bear


    Ive no doubt there are charities where money is misappropriated and it does and will happen. Human greeds lies in the background for all of us



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don't need to use a debating tactic.

    I just need to ask a few of questions.

    Do you support transgender rights? If so, how many genders do you support? What makes the two binary genders more valid than the others in your opinion?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    So we have crossed our bridges and met in the middle. For the public interest then Pride charities And evan all NGO's here should be checked out. I mean we have 11.400 with a population of 5.1 mil.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Liberty_Bear


    Its a lot more than that...11,400 is a drop in the ocean!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    Going by Registered Charities via the charity webby. Reminds me of the UN woman and is Irelands only source of jobs NGO's 😂



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