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Dublin Pride ends media partnership with RTE over Liveline's Gender Identity discussion

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    Now, referencing your earlier post, there is an example of someone that looks upset, there are even shouty caps too!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You have no right to claim anyone else is ignorant towards science when you claim a man can be pregnant.

    That's it.

    There's no argument. There's no discussion.

    The very HINT that you may have a scientific high ground when it comes to disputing that just shows the only utterance you made on this thread that was anywhere near factual, is that it's absolutely pointless in you engaging.

    Head over to the lgbt forum where your feelings aren't allowed be questioned by nasty truths (even when it comes from the lgb group)



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's for emphasis. And I was referencing YOUR earlier post.

    And you never answered my couple of simple questions... quite the coincidence that you and people like you always avoid those questions.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ignorance shown towards 'science'.

    There's no ignorance.

    The science of biological sexes is not unique to human beings; it's the norm throughout much of nature. There's no reason to assume that humans are any different. Indeed, we aren't any different. We understand the nature of biological sex, and we definitely understand that only biological females can give birth.

    For me, gender is a social construction and doesn't objectively exist. It may exist in the minds of those who believe it, but for me, it's no more objectively real than a political belief or a social belief or a religious belief. It's something personal to the person involved, and I have no reason to accept that belief in the same way that nobody can force me to accept any of the other beliefs hitherto mentioned.

    When a personal belief collides with reality and nature, we should always side with the latter over the former.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    The vast majority of these NGOs are providers of healthcare, social care, education, sports and community facilities. No big deal really.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,373 ✭✭✭raclle


    I'm genuinely curious about your way of thinking. Do you mind explaining what you actually mean by this? Not trying to put words in your mouth but that posts suggests you think biological males can become pregnant or there is some sort of way of making it happen?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    Does it? You think my post (only a few posts after I criticise another for slapping the word biological in front of every other word and calling it science) suggest that someone born male can give birth. I can only apologise as I don't think I said that anywhere.


    I'm critical of the usual arguments here. The usual disregard for any sort of fresh thinking or sensible discussion (which is ironic given that the words logic, facts and science are thrown about by people who are either unwilling to accept that they may be wrong about their assumptions or just simply don't understand biology or science at all).

    Of course I expect to be further mocked by those in this camp, but that's their ignorance, not mine (but it's certainly not likely to motivate myself or any trans people to engage.. why would they?).

    If you are so biased that you need to resort to name calling or can only explain trans people as deluded or mentally ill, then how can you claim to be of a scientific mind? Doesn't really stack up now, does it?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    by people who are either unwilling to accept that they may be wrong about their assumptions...

    But you are unwilling to accept that you may be wrong about your assumptions.

    That's pretty convenient, isn't it?

    You're trying to sound scientific when it comes to criticising our positions, yet do not apply the same standard to your own positions.

    But you are saying this line as if all arguments against any position are of equal or equally worthwhile value.

    Another group of people wedded to the line, "...by people who are either unwilling to accept that they may be wrong about their assumptions", are flat Earthers, religious fundamentalists, and those who deny the moon landings occurred. They literally trot out this line within about 30-seconds.

    Now, if any of the above groups came to you with the same line, you wouldn't give their arguments equal time or value on the basis that their fundamental assumptions are quite simply false. Not false as in "just a little bit false", but false on a gigantic scale.

    So we can dismiss the arguments accordingly.

    That's not an unscientific approach; it's perfectly in-tune with the best available science, logic, and so on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    This is a debating tactic.

    As ive pointed out many times, supporting the rights of trans women to have legal recognition as women, and for trans men to have legal recognition as men does not commit you to any other beliefs about staticgender etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    He is being perfectly accurate when he says men can be pregnant. Trans men are legally recognised as men in our laws.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    I've answered your questions multiple times and shown how it's a debating tactic that leads you yourself to express contradictory claims about wanting staticgender to be a legally recognized gender.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If asking a few basic questions is a "tactic" then ok.

    I asked a specific poster about THEIR beliefs.

    "Do you support transgender rights? If so, how many genders do you support? What makes the two binary genders more valid than the others in your opinion?"

    No gotcha (although you think it is). Just simple questions that most supposed "trans"-rights activists dont answer.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Oh I know YOU have. You only care about binary genders. You aren't a trans rights activist. You just advocate for men to be treated as biological women and vice versa (which I personally find odd as you know they aren't)

    What was your answer to why you believe that the two genders you support are more valid than others again? I've honestly forgotten.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    I'm fully willing to accept that I'm wrong in any scenario. Can you truly say the same?

    All I know is trans people obviously exist and I don't believe we can explain this by saying they are deluded or mentally ill (of course some trans people absolutely are suffering from mental health conditions as well). I'm curious about the science behind this. That's it, no name calling, no putting people down or trying to diminish their opinion because 'uhm feelings ' or any other bs that I see repeated on these (tiresome) threads.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    "If you are so biased that you need to resort to name calling or can only explain trans people as deluded or mentally ill, then how can you claim to be of a scientific mind? Doesn't really stack up now, does it?"

    Do you have a different definition of the word "deluded" than I do?

    "believing something that is not true"

    A transwoman is not an adult human female.

    A transman is not an adult human male.

    You know these to be facts yet you advocate that a man can be a woman. What is the definition of a woman to you, if not adult human female?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    Thank you, the more you post the less I need to!



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    You've done it already. You have a specific but very faulty tactic in mind:

    You are not simply "asking questions" as when the poster replies with an answer you will incorrectly claim that supporting the rights of trans men to be legally recognised as men and trans women to be legally recognised as women must lead to holding a position on staticgender.

    This is false and why it's a debating tactic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    Explain transgender people without calling them mentally ill. I'll take any scientific terms, research or papers that you care to offer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    Or that somehow, someone born male can carry a child. Or whatever other contortions of definitions they want to get into.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    And now you are trying to gatekeep what a trans right activist is.

    Would you agree with someone saying "you're not a feminist because you don't campaign for trans women"?

    My answer was that I don't see any gender as more valid.

    For instance, if we ignore trans issues for a moment, I would not say to a feminist who doesn't campaign for men's rights (around access to their children for example) as thinking that the female gender is.more "valid" than the male gender.

    It's a nonsense argument. Campigning for a specific issue does not mean you view other issues as less valid.

    Do gay rights campaigners think being straight isn't "valid". Completely ludicrous.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    That particular poster isn't even aware of the legislation he is debating. He's never read it and has made some strange false assumptions about it.

    I'm not sure he understands that trans men are legally recognized as men.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    I know, I've been following the thread just couldn't be arsed replying. But the absurdity of another poster dragged me in. It's just a lot of anger and no real will to move forward in any way.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Indeed. When someone claims to be against gender identity but calls for staticgender to be legally recognized it's probably time to stop debating with them.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I admit I was unaware that non-binary genders were also not legally recognised. I made a false assumption due to it being called the gender recognition act, that it covered all genders.

    What is a man then if not an adult male human?

    What is your definition of a man? You concede that a transman isn't male don't you? Or are you bastardising that word too?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I say you aren't a trans rights activist because I take the word trans to mean transgender, only two of which you support.

    Ok, then would it be correct to label you a selective gender rights activist?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    There is no bastardisation of words. You just don't seem to have Kuch knowledge of how the term male is used in English language. You assume it's tied to chromosomal biology. You are incorrect.

    It is generally used as the adjectival form of "man".

    So most people do not say "a man engineer" or "a man nurse". They will say male instead.

    So of course with trans men being legally recognized as men, I will say "male engineer" to describe a trans man who is an engineer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,590 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    No it would be correct to label me as a trans rights activist as all people apart from those whi have dug themselves into ridiculous logic holes would agree that someone who campaigns for trans men to be legally recognized as men and trans women to be legally recognized as a women is a trans rights activist.

    Even GC people would happily label me as a TRA.

    Your logic hole is absurd.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    And yet other posters balk at my overuse of the word "biological".

    You believe that a male can be born with a vagina, and a female can be born with a penis.

    And that's normal and not a bastardisation of the term?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'm not sure he understands that trans men are legally recognized as men.

    Do you accept that the legal recognition of something does not mean that the statement is objectively true?



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Not at all.

    And I'll wear it as a badge of honour that someone that believes that someone born male can be a female finds MY logic absurd.



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