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Science Supports Trans People - Here is why

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,474 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Value judgement is not appropriate in this circumstance. Exactly the same argument were and still are been used to oppress gay youths.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    Again disingenuous.

    I'm a father. I look after my kids.

    We also talk a lot about most things. But I will never force anything down their throat.

    I think if you do it speaks more of yourself. Quite frankly, cowardly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,474 ✭✭✭Shoog


    .. you assume I would force anything down their throats. That would be a very wrong assumption.

    it is my base principle of parenting to give my children enough information for them to make their own informed decision appropriate to their age. That means all subjects.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    That makes no sense. The post you replied to you is absolutely nothing to do with forcing anything.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Whereas you seem to see no hypocrisy in your claims, considering that you want to impose your values and boundaries on other people... all in the name of an extreme minority. (Really miss the decent rolleyes emoticon in this situations). You are amazingly blatant in how you express your expectation for double standards that suit your own agenda.

    And thank you for your permission that I may have an opinion.. Oddly enough, throughout this topic I have voiced my opinion. I have not assumed any position of authority, in spite of your suggestions that I'm imposing my views on anyone. Funny that.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If you consider that to be an essay, I'd hate to think of what you consider actual essays to be like. You really can't read through fast? Considering how much time everyone spends time online, I think you're simply trying to avoid dealing with what was written.

    Which is fine. You didn't address my previous points. I don't expect you to address these last ones either.

    As for the 2/3 remark.. right back at you.. but then I doubt you consider applying your standards for others to yourself.

    No problem with leaving this here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    Again I agree with education.

    Are you comfortable with hrt therapy for pre pubescent children?



  • Registered Users Posts: 342 ✭✭briangriffin


    The science of the male and female brain?

    Where there are 3 or 4 in a group of friends coming out as trans, do you think it's possible that social contagion is happening (youtube, reddit, tiktok,snapchat) and how would you treat all children would all be given puberty blockers? Do you think circumstance or geography should dictate whether elective mastectomies are carried out on perfectly healthy girls?

    How can child A a girl who likes playing with boys and having short hair and really feels like she's a boy and wants to be a boy more than anything at age 6. She persists because once an idea is introduced obsessed over and affirmed it takes root and its affirmed by the local trans charity, GP and parents who don't know what to do but listen to the experts? So she's told she is a girl born in a boys body and now the adults in the room have created a self fulfilling prophecy where a child's brain is in the wrong body and they need to change the body to match the brain or the hormones as you referred to.

    Versus child B a girl who likes playing with boys and having short hair and really feels like she's a boy more than anything at age 6. She also obsessed over it but is not affirmed is not told she was born in the wrong body, gender or identity or trans are not mentioned to her instead she is told its OK to play with boys to want short hair to live an authentic life just how she is because you know they are just children, innocent and completely unable to comprehend the implications of the life of a trans man..

    I know which approach I'd want for my kids..



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭Gant21


    A couple of days in the bog is needed after reading all that.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 342 ✭✭briangriffin


    I'd never blindly trust any organisation /ideology with my kids lives but that's just me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,474 ✭✭✭Shoog


    If that is the best treatment that helps a child make an informed decision at an appopate age then yes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,474 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Puberty blockers are not given to 6 year olds so your comments are a bit hysterical. I have few problems with a 12 year old agreeing to puberty blockers if they have been consitent in their assertions about their gender since th were a six year old.

    What you are indulging in is straw man arguments.



  • Registered Users Posts: 414 ✭✭dorothylives


    And so it begins. It's about time better measures are put in place. I think this is just the tip of the iceberg and I feel huge sympathy for the people who have been damaged by going down this route. There seems to be more of a push to get young people onto medication and into body disfiguring surgeries rather than to pause and think about what they're doing and counsel them on what it means if they go ahead.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,474 ✭✭✭Shoog



    A populist hard right government going after a soft target to rouse up it's dipshit base. Colour me surprised. And yes there will be victims of this decision.



  • Registered Users Posts: 414 ✭✭dorothylives


    You'd like to believe that. I think you'd happily see more vulnerable youngsters walked into making the biggest mistake of their lives. This has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with the very damaging and very alarming way that NGO's like Stonewall have been allowed so much power and so much say to push this stuff and that has destroyed so many young lives. Thankfully that's coming to an end and hopefully there will be prosecutions over this. Some of the people behind Tavistock should be jailed and hopefully they'll be struck off.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,474 ✭✭✭Shoog


    If an honest review is undertaken without interference then nothng will change

    Gender reassignment therapy is not the norm, it is the end of a long process with multiple off ramps.


    Keep tilting at windmills.



  • Registered Users Posts: 342 ✭✭briangriffin


    There is no straw man argument here.

    Social transition happens as young as 5. Social transition is not a neutral act in the same way as taking puberty blockers is not a "pause" on puberty. Social transition leads to puberty blockers which leads to hormone therapy. Tavistock had the ability to prove how beneficial all these "treatments" were but failed to follow up with the thousands of children that came through their doors, why on earth would they not follow up to make sure that what they were doing had the best long term outcome for their patients?



  • Registered Users Posts: 342 ✭✭briangriffin


    For the review to take place then follow ups would have to happen with all the patients so we could actually learn from the past number of years.


    There have been numerous whistle blowers from inside Tavistock who claim that treatment was fast tracked without consideration of alternatives, these employees had serious concerns about how children were being treated in the clinic, how quickly they were put on puberty blockers after the initial consultation, enough to resign from their poitions. They claimed that a culture developed where affirmative care was seen as the most appealing outcome for the clinic led by the top down.

    Out of 44 children prescribed puberty blockers 43 went on to cross sex hormones in the only published study from tavistock. I'd certainly want the prescribing of puberty blockers to be a very thorough process with checks and balances I wouldn't want to be seeing whistleblowers claiming the opposite.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,474 ✭✭✭Shoog


    You characterise the process as progressve grooming, you have so little faith in the fact that a child knows itself and only needs support to realise what it needs. I do not accept your characturisation of the treatment process.

    You imagine that forcing a a child who identifies as the opposite gender to their birth sex to remain as their birth sex as a benign and neutral act ? Let's just say would you consider it benign and neutral if your parents made you dress as a girl - because that is what the equivalent scenario would be.


    I feel nothing but immense sympathy for the struggles these children and families are going through and I want to see every available help for them to do what is ultimately best for that child, whatever place that takes them to. Blocking their options can only cause more harm.


    The real crisis at tavistock is lack of capcacity to meet demand. Any over subscribed service inevitably compromises quality of service.

    The solution is not to block that service but to expand it.

    Post edited by Shoog on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    There is also an alarming trend of people working within the field, who are in fear of criticizing any aspect out of fear of being labelled "transphobic"...

    I believe this has been an issue stateside, also many of the "experts" in this field seem to be ideological driven...

    Listen I hope I'm wrong, but I fear in 10 years time we look back and see the damage that has been done, social contagion of gender dysphoria is very controversial I know, but the increases we are seeing in cases is absolutely bonkers...and we are already seeing kids who've transitioned realize it was a mistake and of course plenty of success too...but it's still very early days



  • Registered Users Posts: 342 ✭✭briangriffin


    Children this age need to be guided and protected not exposed to an unproven ideology and groomed.

    You are confusing children with short adults. Children do not have the mental capacity to understand the implications of making these decisions at that age, that is why they have adults in their lives.

    How does a child know they are born in the wrong body?

    What is their reference point for coming to that conclusion?

    How can they understand the implications of a medical transition?


    I believe that a child who identifies as the opposite gender to their birth sex should not be put on a social or medical pathway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    It's their sex, not birth sex...sex can't be changed, unless you have figured out a way to alter chromosome's



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,474 ✭✭✭Shoog




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,474 ✭✭✭Shoog


    I disagree, and science does to.

    You have a very poor impressing children's ability to understand themselves. You are right in saying we are here to support and guide them, but that doesn't mean we are here to make them fit our expectations of normality.



  • Registered Users Posts: 342 ✭✭briangriffin


    Ive spent 183 days a year with kids this age for the past 15 years. I'm well aware of what they need and how vulnerable they are.

    Normality?

    Because I don't want these children to be indoctrinated into an ideological cult does not make me a Conservative nor does you thinking you are being progressive in your approach to this issue make you a modern thinker.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,474 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Once you say ideological cult you abundantly identify yourself as a cultist in your own right.


    You stopped discussing the issues and signalled your political tribe.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    I under basic biology...now if someone with xy chromosomes wants to wear a dress and call themselves Mary, more power to them and I genuinely couldn't care less that's their decision, but that person is still biological male and nothing can change that...

    I have a in-laws who are male who wear high heels and make up(kinda a cross between Noel Fielding & David Bowie) and is gay, if he was 10 years younger, he'd had been called transgender, but his just a gay man, who enjoys wearing what he wants and expressing himself how he sees fit...his still a male and that's what his chromosomes will tell us



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,474 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Gender and biological sex are the issue, if you dont accept that then your not discussing the issue.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    Sorry can you expand on that?

    You mentioned sex earlier



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