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Jordan Peterson

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,643 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Of course he does. But his target market wants to hear the kind of arguments they're used to, so he gives it to them.

    I would be willing to bet that in the 4 hours he didn't say anything that challenges his target market's biases. Nothing that would upset or challenge the opinions of your average Fox News viewer.

    He's selling "their truth" as the Americans say. Conflating climate with weather is a fairly common one on in climate change denial circles. "It's snowing in May, how do the leftist, climate change folk explain that? We could use some global warming round here, huh guys?" The usual shtick.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Wonders to what extent Peterson uses the KISS principle during vids and interviews? An appeal to those who buy his lobster pseudo science claims in chapter 1 of his 12 Rules book?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,261 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Whether one sees Peterson as a fascist apologist or as a grifter plugging books, the KISS strategy is essential to both groups. 12 Rules had the advantage of drawing upon what one might call "grandfather advice" to provide a veneer of legitimacy for Peterson's ramblings and inane ranting about this and that.

    Now though, his problem is that he's fully embraced anti-science positions and has endorsed from his privileged position of safety the trucker protests in Canada knowing that any consequences won't apply to him.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    When Peterson began his 12 Rules with the lobster pseudo scientific analogy, it became difficult to give any credibility to the remaining chapters.



  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭arthursway


    It is certainly a breath of fresh air listening to people with unconventional views like Jordan Peterson and I seem I am not alone as he has gathered quite the following it seems.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,261 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    It gets worse.

    If you judge Peterson by the standard he himself set, ie that one should always be precise with one's words then he's essentially a supporter of right wing authoritarianism and tyranny. He endlessly (and I do mean endlessly) cites Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's The Gulag Archipelago as if it were unquestionable fact. He says little to nothing about the holocaust, fascism or antisemitism. I think much can be drawn from this. He constantly returns to the same few people, namely Jesus, Jung and Freud. I used to think 12 Rules was innocuous drivel but it's a bit worse than that and I think Peterson didn't say the quiet bits quietly enough.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Not certain I would label Peterson’s views as unconventional. When reading Maps and 12 Rules it suggests to me that he wants us to believe and behave in ways consistent with the pre-1960’s conventions of thinking.

    The old Ozzie and Harriet era comes to mind. When men were the traditional breadwinners and heads of households. Women were to be homemakers, and childcare domestics, standing behind their man. His biblical references in Maps about women’s roles suggests this. As does his pseudo scientific lobsters analogy about men’s and women’s biological behavior in 12 Rules.

    Further, Peterson’s left and right brain dominance claims in Maps used to differentiate between the thinking of men and women had no significant scientific support. It was more paternal and old biblical than scientific. It was just a metaphor for light discussion purposes. Not factual as applied by Peterson.

    Gareth Morgan in Imaginations cautioned about taking such metaphors literally. To do so was to adopt a distortion of reality. For example, to say king Richard was as ferocious as a lion, does not make him one literally. Peterson’s suggestion that men were more left brain than women was an attempt to go back to the old traditional gender roles, and not “unconventional.”

    Furthermore, Peterson associates men’s behavior with order and “an anecdote to chaos,” and such chaos attributed to women’s behavior in 12 Rules. I was then expecting Peterson to say that men could not be hysterical, because men did not have a wandering womb.

    Post edited by Fathom on


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Peterson is once again attempting to trigger a controversy with his tweets about a list of philosophers he has labeled “postmodern NeoMarxists.” Of course he relies on Wikipedia and not scholarly sources to make his points.

    Catherine McKinnon appears on his list. Humorously, she is noted for the essay Points Against Postmodernism.

    Michel Foucault also appears on Peterson’s list. A philosopher associated with poststructuralism. Makes me wonder if Peterson knows the difference between postmodernism and poststructuralism?

    More amusing. Peterson lists Robin DiAngelo as a NeoMarxist. Someone who has made their living as a consultant for several of capitalism’s large corporations.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Peterson put a whole new spin on the body politic. Please excuse my poor attempted pun.

    His “not beautiful” tweet about Yumi Nu, the Asian American curve model featured on 2022 annual swimsuit cover page of Sports Illustrated, was very telling.

    Why body politic? Peterson added after his disparaging comment about a woman’s body: “And no amount of authoritarian tolerance is going to change that.”

    Peterson’s Maps and 12 Rules books fall into the self help genre. How helpful was his tweet about this woman’s body? How empathetic was his comment for the millions of women about the world who struggle with body image? And this comment from a person claiming to be educated and a practitioner of clinical psychology.

    Or was this yet another attempt to draw attention to himself by making a controversial tweet?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,261 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Peterson is just another conservative hypocrite. Modern conservatism has detached somewhat from reality and is now based on perpetuating a singular and never ending culture war. The thing about culture war is that you need fresh outrages to replace the ones people become bored of.

    Of course, Peterson is far from being either the first or the only person to start preaching about obesity. I think that this is just a cynical attempt to stay relevant for the sake of his Patreon income along with his new book.

    Of course, he call loudly call out on this cynical move for what it was and then rushed to play the victim card and scurry away. He doesn't care about women or anyone else. He's even so desperate that he's an outright climate change denier. I've read some of what Jameela Jamil has written about body issues and I found that much more illuminating than Peterson boilerplate reactionist tattle.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Peterson attempts to ride on the tail of the so called culture war. The latest spin title of attention seekers.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,261 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    He does. His shtick is to say enough to exploit it while pretending to be moderate and stressing his status as an academic. It's as cynical as it is transparent. Moderates of any sort are ill suited to such environments.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ye can just not watch his videos lads..



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Why should we comment on social media about Peterson, or anything else? Furthermore, why should Peterson? Is this an existential question?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Well, that depends on what we mean by 'existential'..and what we mean by 'question'..



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    And to continue with an elaboration of the obvious, what do we mean by “comment?” Or more importantly, how is “what we mean” conceptualized; and how measured qualitatively and quantitatively, as guided by theories and philosophies accordingly?

    Ironically speaking, was there a time consuming debate that went on for months during the impeachment trial of former US president Bill Clinton as to “what we mean” by the word “is?”

    Then again, a new thread that addresses “what we mean” by “existential” would be welcome on our Philosophy forum, while at the same time not functioning to distract us from a discussion of Jordan Peterson.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 879 ✭✭✭mazdamiatamx5




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Pissy Missy


    This conversation should probably be in the psychology forum



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,261 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Anything to say or are you just dumping this here?

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 879 ✭✭✭mazdamiatamx5


    I thought it was an ok spoof on Peterson.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Peterson suspended from Twitter. Due to his tweet about transgender actor Elliot Page’s breast surgery. Wonders how these comments fit into Maps or 12 Rules?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,643 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Is there a rule about throwing red meat to your fans to help elevate your public profile? If there is, then he's nailing it.

    Getting thrown off twitter is surely a great career move for right wing characters. Demonstrates their points about the left and the Marxists. He can talk all about it directky to his followers, gathered on Telegram and Truth Social.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Granted, Peterson’s 2 books sell to the male self help genre. But he also lectured, videoed, and interviewed in areas that pertains to the larger philosophy of life issues, including a somewhat superficial epistemological discussion on the origins and practices of male and female gender identities, language, and practices.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,733 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Peterson's big fault is his absolutism on science, he is anal about statistics, citation and backing with evidence.


    It makes his positions unnuanced for today's world, especially social media.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    “Throwing red meat to your fans...” Was this a double entendres to Peterson’s earlier diet recommendations?



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    I find his lobster argument in chapter one of 12 Rules as problematic pseudo science.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,643 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Lol. No but I wish it was.

    That's absolutely what that diet was. There's no way he would have promoted a miracle cure diet based on vegetarianism. The notion that he just stumbled upon a diet of literally only red meat, when he sells books to Conservative Americans, is not plausible.

    He promoted his daughter selling the diet plan as "counselling". No qualifications in diet or nutrition or medicine or anything, just grifting.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 420 ✭✭NiceFella


    I wouldn't say that about him at all. He was on JRE talking about climate models being nonsense (even though they've been very accurate thus far) because they're just abstractions and the systems are too complicated. Correction all models are abstractions. In science you cannot factor in all influential variables because all systems are too complicated.

    This is a completely hypocritical position because modern statistics is heavily model based.

    He just cherry picks what he likes and shuns what he doesn't like, which surprisingly most intellectuals do with a heavy ideological bias.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    @NiceFella

    Obviously, Peterson is not qualified in meteorology by education, research, or experience. Does this make you wonder why he steps away from his discipline to make unqualified, controversial, and sensational statements?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,957 ✭✭✭growleaves


    A Missouri Catholic Democrat (I forget his name) borrowed the phrase from Bismarck - 'Kulturkampf' (culture struggle) in German.




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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Culture Wars would be a great topic in our Philosophy forum. A new OP. It has philosophical antecedents and contemporary expressions. You mentioned this with Bismarck and the unnamed more recent user.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 420 ✭✭NiceFella


    Not really, it's his way of playing to his audience. You can make a good living from people who have stroppy or aloof notions about the world. Gemma O'Doherty made a few quid from patrion for example online crowd funding.

    Not to put Petersen on that level because he is without question a very smart man. He can make some good points (very few imo) but as I say he is aware of his audience and as such he tends to keep in step with these ideas without fully approving them to maximise his popularity.

    Look at it this way. You won't stand out from the crowd by saying "climate change is man made and we need to do something about it" (You along with 97% of professional opinion). However taking the opposite opinion you do and you'll have a sizeable following from people who watch "science on you tube".



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    This is a discussion forum. It’s OK to link something here about Peterson. But you should also discuss it. Perhaps why you think the link contains a good spoof.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Pissy Missy




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,261 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I don't think he's taking it well.

    He seems to be getting more and more unhinged and emotional as time goes on. I wonder if he's secretly happy to be banned so he can adopt a more strident victimhood narrative.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    To what extent does his making of controversial statements, especially those outside his listed qualifications (e.g., climate change), exhibit trolling behavior?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,261 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I don't think it's so much about that. Authoritarian personalities tend to lean conservative and despise nuance and complexity. I think he's pandering to this demographic now by feeding them what they want to hear under the guise of an "expert". It's big business with plenty of "personalities" flooding the market now telling conservatives exactly what they want to hear and doing their best to shut down debate.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,280 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    he comes across as being very narcissistic, i wonder what disorders he has......



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    The DailyWire+ now features Jordan Peterson. They claim he is just getting started. From the show topics listed, he appears to be an expert on everything.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,261 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Honestly, we could make a bad_stats thread alone about Peterson. Here is he trying to discredit concern for Ukraine.

    There's a fair bit of this. I don't know if this is the new step in North American right wing thought or whatever. I've been to the Holodomor museum in Kyiv. It's a tragic place. I don't need some far right junkie trying to tell me what I really think or what my true motivations are.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • Registered Users Posts: 81 ✭✭BigRighysteria


    Did you just call Jordan Peterson a right wing junkie?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭Dufflecoat Fanny


    I agree with a lot of his opinions but not all. This statement about not caring about Ukraine pissed me off. I do care about Ukrainians and would never accept any appeasement to the Russian mafia. He always spouts on about how brutal the Russians are, why the hell would he think treating with them and conceding is a good idea?

    I booked tickets to see him in sept I'm seriously considering cancelling them. His daughter is a brain washed one trick pony too from listening to her.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,261 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Yes.

    I used to think of him as the sort of guy who dispensed advice that someone who grew up in the seventies or before might give. Stand up straight, don't lie, etc.... Harmless enough stuff, like.

    I got 12 Rules as an audiobook and just found a bit tedious for the most part. He spends multiple pages describing conflict resolution in lobsters. The takeaway is that women like confident men. That's it.

    Regarding the Russians, it could be because he's on the take or he's just trying to be non-mainstream. I don't know which is more likely.

    If you go, enjoy. My friends spent €120 going to see him, Sam Harris and Doulgas Murray. I feel like they paid €120 for a Youtube video but they seemed satisfied enough.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users Posts: 81 ✭✭BigRighysteria




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭Count Dracula


    He is a really articulate speaker and I think that is why people are so fond of listening to him and hence he generated a huge following.

    But I actually don't like being preached to and told how to live my life based on what he fathoms is the right thing to do? I am confident that people prosper and realise their goals by interpreting and following his teachings. But I reckon that it is all a bit too anal. The web is cluster-phucked with contradicting self help quides' and life assessment. Companies such as Google ( via YouTube ) force feeding you these daily orations on how to survive in the modern world, very American all said.

    It is subtle mind control if you take a step back and look at what is going on.

    I would not trust him to mind my kids for an afternoon either, he would have them drawing life choice Venn Diagrams on his White board... whereas they should be out in the garden rolling in the sandpit and breaking their toys.



  • Registered Users Posts: 980 ✭✭✭harmless


    What is going on with his daughter Makila?

    After only a few months of seeing a man she describe as a Stalinist with a demon inside she has a child with him and a shotgun wedding. This ends in divorce.

    She then dates a man in Romania called Andrew Tate. A very colourful character who has been accused of trafficking sex workers.

    And now she has just got engaged to a man that claims to be a devout Christian and has the same first name as her father.

    Daddy issues?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    To what extent did his recent comments about Russia and its war against Ukraine exemplify his personal rather than professional male oriented self help philosophy? Or was this just another attempt to draw attention to himself by saying something controversial?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,503 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    “Russia vs Ukraine or Civil War in the West.” Peterson interviewed about 2 weeks ago. It appears that he is now claiming to be an expert in foreign affairs and war.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,331 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    if millions of men and boys who do not read or attend philosophy suddenly flock to one and fill forums with "he's a high qualified bla bla" then by all means enjoy but be wary and suspicious



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