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Science Supports Trans People - Here is why

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    Wow. Some post!

    I agree with elements of it. As in tolerance.

    It's a minority who cause grief in all groups. Best ignored if possible.

    What I meant by feck it, is that anyone of sane mind doesn't care.

    Woe betide somebody who tells me how to think (but I'm well able to admit when I'm wrong). Or calls me a cis man.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ahh well.. I think anyone of sane mind should care.

    Remember when the PC movement started to gather steam in the US? We said, crazy Americans, it'll never be accepted over here. But it was, and is firmly established at this point. Then, the woke movement came along with the emotion over logic, being sensitive, safe spaces, etc.. and we said, crazy Americans, it'll never be accepted here.. and.. it's here in spades now. In fact, I could point to gender theory, hard-line feminism, and quite a few other social movements that started in the US and have since become quite firmly established in Ireland. Not very widespread, but our governments are bringing in laws, without any public discussion, that relate to all of these social movements.

    We really need to stop ignoring these changes in society.. before we wake up with a generation of teenagers who have been encouraged to believe they are Trans, turning to surgical/hormonal treatments to establish their identity, or to have primary schools encouraging young children to question their gender because their teacher has advocated for Trans beliefs. Without a firm position in our politics, government, and legal system on Trans issues, that's exactly what we're going to face.. because it's already happening in the US (thankfully there's starting to be some pushback)

    This isn't about telling you what to think (although considering the Hate Speech laws, it could be about what you say). This is about the next few generations of Irish people. What kind of society do you want? Unless we stand up, and question the Trans debate.. there won't be decent research into the negatives, and the long-term consequences in society, except as some kind of feel-good measure to assure people that it will be great to be Trans.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13 куриный шарик


    Science wont allow those under 17 in Ireland to get a Tattoo without parental consent, they might get a **** Tattoo, and the science says they might have regrets that will cause mental health problems/anguish, science says you have to be 18 to drink alcohol as you are not developed enough to handle it physically and emotionally, but science says you dont need to be 18 and dont need parental consent to take life changing hormones and undergo brutal life changing surgery, have i missed any of the science?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,074 ✭✭✭✭y0ssar1an22


    the fact that adolescents received even close to this type of medical interference against their natural biology is tantamount to child abuse.

    in 20 years there will be a wave of abuse cases brought cos young john was never given the chance to become man john (that is if they haven't already killed themselves)

    i dont know how people find this acceptable



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,469 ✭✭✭Shoog


    The level of ignorance of the actual prossess of seeking help for gender dymorphism Is stunning. The belief that there are trans activists covertly operting in our schools is similarly laughable.


    You people need to both educate yourself and get a life.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,451 ✭✭✭AllForIt



    There is a piece there on the genetics behind it which I have posted. 


    This is what you're referring to right? https://www.nature.com/articles/518288a

    What this is saying is that there is or may be a spectrum of Sex's (not gender) due to some people having both XX and XY chromosomes in some cells. Genetics is not my thing so forgive me if I'm misunderstood something here.

    Are you suggesting that this is scientific evidence (if not conclusive proof) that there is a genetic basis to gender identity both trans and non-binary? If so then wouldn't every trans person and non-binary person exhibit this mixed chromosome trait that one could verify with a test?

    Or are you simply saying there's stuff we don't know so keep an open mind...?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Jerry Coyne penned a very insightful piece about what has happened with scientific papers, such as Nature and Science, and how they've been infected with an ideological spin.

    Basically, journals such as Nature and Science accept the dimorphic nature of sex when it suits them, but they have no problem to occasionally provide a platform for the "everything is a spectrum"-nonsense.

    Nor would this be the first time in history when prestigious academic journals were contaminated with ideology or some sort of social bias. Think of how homosexuality, for example, was widely considered a mental disorder.

    At the time, people would have quoted papers on it. Now, we realise it was all bunkum to begin with.

    Genetics and behavioural science and so on, is very vulnerable to that kind of social contagion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 342 ✭✭briangriffin


    To be fair there is nothing covert about it, there are charity groups advising the department of education and school unions on what their policies should be for a child socially transitioning in primary school. They have instructional videos on how to teach children that a boy can be born in the wrong body and can actially be a girl.

    Belongto teni and others have a direct line to policy drivers in education/ politicians / authors.

    It's not a figment of anyone's imagination as much as you like to deflect and hold your hands up saying nothing to see here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,469 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Considering that almost no schools offer any form of sex education because of their ethos - I call hysterical BS on this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,676 ✭✭✭thinkabouit


    This 100%

    Science used to believe beyond doubt the world was flat.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,469 ✭✭✭Shoog




  • Registered Users Posts: 342 ✭✭briangriffin



    https://vimeo.com/433526547/recommended

    This INTO video on the socially transitioning of primary school children note the " sometimes a boy doesn't feel like the sex he was assigned at birth and feels like a girl, so boys can change into girls and girls can change into boys." There is then talk of introducing non binary genders at the end of the video to primary school kids.

    Pdst guide to gender identity " think of teaching puberty in gender neutral language bodies with a penis and bodies with a vagina instead of boys and girls"


    Click the Teni diversity guide on this link to teaching primary school kids about gender identity

    Have a read and see how indoctrination occurs -



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,469 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Education/indoctrination, it all depends if you like the idea.

    But you didn't address my point did you. I guarantee that you could waste a lot of time finding anywhere where sex education looks anything like this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 342 ✭✭briangriffin


    You said we needed to educate ourselves, that there is no trans activists operating in primary schools I've given you links to resources for primary schools, all refer to non science all ideologically driven and now your say I didn't answer your question that you'd be hard pressed to find a school implementing these resources. Unfortunately there are ideologues just like you in every walk of like including teaching who will embrace all of this, it is happening Dr aoife Neary of UL did a report into social transition in primary schools, children aged 5-13 were transitioning based on advice from TENI among others. But go ahead and deflect some more.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,469 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Knock yourself out and go find those places, report back the fruits of your valuable time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 342 ✭✭briangriffin


    That's about the typical response from people like you, when confronted with reality.

    There are no resources, its not happening then when proven wrong show me a school its happening in, have a look at the report I referenced youll find just a few there then, look for yourself and youll find them.

    You are right though on every occasion where you've been proven incorrect and with no factual basis to your assertions, you have deflected well and stuck dogmatically to the script, kudos to you. Good little sheep.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You are right though on every occasion where you've been proven incorrect and with no factual basis to your assertions, you have deflected well and stuck dogmatically to the script, kudos to you. Good little sheep.

    I'm a good openminded progressive liberal, and I want to hear your reasons, but I will only accept reasons that comply with my existing perspective. Anything else is to be belittled, ignored or dismissed entirely, while returning to the original request for reasons and my reassertion of being openminded...

    😂



  • Registered Users Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Liberty_Bear


    @eskimohunt - yet from what we understand from cause and correlation that there is a likelihood of how we think about biological sex is not correct, its not in a binary structure but rather moves along a spectrum. This evidence based approach of science threatens the very hegmony of those who hold dear the notion that there are only two biological genders. Genetics is a very definite science - Huntingtons disease, breast cancer genes are two which I mention as the tests are extremely accurate in what they test for. Biological gender influenced gender constructs from the time of the Bronze Age, we rigidly put men and women in these boxes therefore if our understanding of biological sex is flawed then it follows our notions of gender do too.


    Ive to also pick you up on another point - on another thread you pointed out that a lot of these issues are to do with gender dysphoria but then have pushed aside psychology as not being a proper science but a social science, you in the long run cancel your own point.


    @AllForIt The open mind is that we are more than likely not a spectrum of definite bioloigcal sex and I am fine with that.


    As a general point - I take issue with kids being given puberty blockers as I dont think they are old enough to make a decision till 16 at minimum. I struggle with the concept myself.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Human beings are genetically dimorphic - with XX and XY.

    There are deviations from this, such as Klinefelter's syndrome, where there is an additional X chromosome on otherwise biological males - but these are medical conditions and not gender identities.

    Now, you're right to say that deviations can exist within genetics, but these are deviations within the dimorphic families of XX and XY. So you can have deviations and variations within XX and deviations and variations within XY, but the overarching dimorphic structure still remains.

    None of the above has anything whatsoever to do with the social construction of how we subjectively feel about our gender identity.

    If you are going down this path, you'd have to identify what gene codes for "non-binary" and what gene codes for specific identities, such as agender. You won't be able to identify those genes precisely because there is no objective basis to assume that a gene can code for specific identities.



  • Registered Users Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Liberty_Bear


    But it has to do with the social construction and how we feel about ourselves pushed into these predefined roles. 80 years ago women wore trousers, that pushed the boundaries hugely at the time. No one raises an eyelid now at it. Those whom are born into the wrong body take up these gender roles that are pre assigned as its how society has pigeon holed them. Were there no such notions of gender roles then we all might end up wearing clothes that belong to our opposing biological sex. Gender and biology while seperate are linked as the gender has become the space to which trans people move into as it gives them identity. Society created that...



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Are you suggesting that there is a genetic basis to what clothes we would prefer to wear / how we express ourselves fashion-wise in relation to identity?

    I don't accept the phraseology that people are born into the wrong body because it's the only body we could have been born into, by definition. You can dislike your body, but you can't say it's the wrong body. There's no choice involved here.

    I'm not saying gender roles don't exist, they do. But these stereotypes are actually perpetuated by the trans- community because the stereotypes are lived out in full. Long hair, dresses, make-up etc. are all artificial stereotypes associated with gender roles / identity. It's surprising that this is being reinforced when we thought we were doing away with these gender roles and stereotypes to begin with.



  • Registered Users Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Liberty_Bear


    The whole scenario is one large vicious circle. Person A is a man, feels like a woman, transitions then moves into wearing dresses and wants to take up a traditionally female role in society (which is what Ive seen on my own personal experience). The gender roles have provided a space from within which people want to operate as their identified gender. Nothing genetic about. But as mentioned before this has existed for thousands of years in India and Polynesia and less advanced soceity 3000 years ago had no issue so what does that say about us now...



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    But I take serious issue with your use of the word "spectrum".

    A spectrum implies a serious degree of variation and range. To take a light-hearted example, if there was a wide range of cuisines at a local buffet, we could argue that there was a wide spectrum of variation. A rainbow has a wide and differentiated spectrum of wavelengths and the colours it produces.

    But trans- occupies around 0.5% of the population against 99.5% of the population who do not identify as trans but just as men and women.

    That range: 99.5% versus 0.5% cannot be called a "spectrum"; as it's tilted so heavily to one side.

    To resurrect the rainbow analogy, imagine if 99.5% of the rainbow was purple and only 0.5% was yellow. Picture that. Would we call that a spectrum?

    You can say that there's a spectrum within the 0.5%, and that may very well be true, but when you lump the 99.5% into the mix and call it a spectrum belies the meaning of the word spectrum ab initio.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    As a general point - I take issue with kids being given puberty blockers as I dont think they are old enough to make a decision till 16 at minimum. I struggle with the concept myself.

    Just curious as to why you said 16 rather than 18? You really think that 16 year olds are aware enough regarding serious life choices at that age?

    Not attacking your opinion, btw. Genuinely curious.



  • Registered Users Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Liberty_Bear


    But trans- occupies around 0.5% of the population against 99.5% of the population who do not identify as trans but just as men and women.

    So there is an admittance there that people can identify as the gender that they want? Spectrum is really that there are a wide range of people in the general population who do not conform to traditional social gender norms, they might a biological sex genetically they are not aware of. Ipso facto these people deviate from the standard cis gender we have come to know.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You said that sex was a spectrum.

    I gave my analysis of why use of the word spectrum regarding sex is wrong. You haven't remotely addressed it.

    Yes, people can identify as whatever gender they wish; that's about 0.5% of the population.

    The other 99.5% are not trans-, so there's no spectrum.

    As I said before, if 99.5% (non-trans men and women) of a rainbow was purple and 0.5% (trans-) was all the rest of the colours of the rainbow - you wouldn't argue this is a spectrum. You'd say that the spectrum happens to fall within the 0.5%.



  • Registered Users Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Liberty_Bear


    Spectrum - a set of points between two defined ends

    Most are born with XY/XX genetics - some are born with different genetics than this - some then fit into the gender that matches their biological sex - some dont fit into it

    Male to Female is the spectrum - there are a lot of people in between that



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So you are agreeing with me that we should not define sex as a spectrum?

    Gender is a different question, and yes, the 0.5% of the population can choose whatever gender they want: from agender to staticgender to astralgender and an infinity of others. You can call gender a spectrum for this 0.5%, absolutely.



  • Registered Users Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Liberty_Bear


    Disagreeing completely, sex is a spectrum then feeds back into gender. From a rigid point of male to female there are a lot of people in between. As I posted above karyotyping has shown a lot of us are not biologically male or female and if we want to drill down further same with brain chemsitry.,


    It is interesting that I have not seen one scientific study from you which has failed to address my points, a lot of it has been your opinion (albeit with no fact) - and your idea that scientific institutions get down on bended knee to some quasi dimorphic agenda...you might want to cite some papers if you want me to take you seriously.


    This discussion is on the science being trans people



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,469 ✭✭✭Shoog


    There you go making up your own self serving definitions again. No one here has ever disputed that it's only about 1% of the population impacted by gender dymorphism. Similarly with autism we see only a small proportion of people impacted but we still use the term spectrum to describe them.



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