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Dreadful..

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,128 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    If the driver had been male and a single father of three with previous convictions for motoring offences would there be pleas for leniency on his behalf solely on the basis that imposing a lengty custodial sentence would be depriving his children of their sole parent?



  • Registered Users Posts: 436 ✭✭Girl Geraldine


    Just to explore a train of thought, hypothetically, would the driver in this instance have a better chance if she used the drunk driving angle as a defence against leaving the scene of an accident? Like, could she argue that she was so profoundly drunk that she didn't even realise she had struck the man, and therefore was not knowingly leaving the scene of an accident as she was unaware of it. It would have been only her husband that made her aware of the accident having seen the damaged car.

    It may be too late for that now though if she has admitted to everything already.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,648 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    Nobody’s saying she shouldn’t have a custodial sentence at all.

    People are completely twisting what magicbastard said, it’s not that she shouldn’t be locked up at all, it’s this whole notion of “throw away the key” that is daft and is exactly the issue that the US has.



  • Registered Users Posts: 436 ✭✭Girl Geraldine


    Probably not but the reality of life is that in the overwhelming majority of family setups, the mother of the children is the primary carer and looks after the lions share of the caring and child rearing,, with the father taking a somewhat secondary but nonetheless important role. It is not always the case, but it would be true for the majority of everyday families. A lot of fathers are absent too. Single father families would be quite rare indeed, though they do exist of course.

    So that leads to a situation where, on average, a mother being imprisoned will have a much greater negative impact on the children compared when a father is imprisoned.

    Someone above suggested that she should have her children put into care as a result of this. What half baked drivel! The woman might have caused a bad accident and fled, but there is absolutely no evidence for her having mistreated or neglected her children. And I can tell you, the bar for having children taken away from a mother and into care is very, very high and is reserved only for the most extreme and irresolvable cases of abuse.

    And would this desire taking them into care be for their own benefit (for abuse that there is no evidence ro suggestion of whatsoever), or as a means to punish the mother?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,406 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    you mean in court? his defence team would not be doing their jobs if they didn't use this line.

    and personally, i wouldn't see a difference with your example with the parent in question being a father rather than a mother. if you jail a lone parent, what happens to their kids?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    Well we have a Labour TD who believes women should never be jailed for crimes... Ivana [s]Batsh!te[\s] Bacik



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,406 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    this is one thing i'm often curious about with the criminal justice system; let's say someone was driving drunk, hit a cyclist, and then left the scene. to be cold about it, should the criminal justice system take the injuries of the cyclist into account?

    what i'm getting at, is if the cyclist was lucky enough to be tumbled off the bike with no injuries, would that make the actions of the driver less punish-worthy? that through blind luck, the cyclist was unharmed so the driver was less culpable?

    i can see why victim impact statements are used in court, it grounds the rather legalistic process into the actual effects of the crime. but often the outcome is down to pure luck, and we should in theory, i guess, avoid punishing luck (or lack of) and punish the crime instead; but that will obviously often be a difficult circle to square.

    i know that might sound like i'm avoiding your question...



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,406 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    yep, and just to restate; my comment which seems to have started this debate was (with emphasis added) "she's a mother of young children AFAIK, so a long custodial sentence would not be sensible."

    my stance on this is somewhat informed by a friend having been dragged into the aftermath of a mother being jailed. said friend is completely unconnected with the crime in question, FWIW.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,371 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Generally the answer to this is Yes unfortunately (murder aside). The courts and prison service are not blind towards gender unfortunately. It is very unusual for women to get any sort of prison sentence unless it is at the extreme end of things. This is borne out by the numbers of women locked up v the number of men when the crimes are similar.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,510 ✭✭✭Wheety


    No. I agree with you. What about one punch deaths? Most of the time the person gets up and walks away. The crime is the same so does the punishment depend on the outcome rather than the crime?

    I'm not sure how to answer that one and it's slightly off topic so I won't continue but if we can't jail Mothers because their kids will be punished, what about if the victim dies leaving behind kids?



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,371 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    I hear you on this. I have had people shout at me telling me that my kids shouldn't be cycling on the road (even though it is still technically illegal for them to cycle on the footpath). They do lack a bit of road smarts but many drivers do not seem to take this into account and try to squeeze past at speed again to save a few seconds of their precious time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,580 ✭✭✭Thud


    “Mother of young kids” is up there with “promising GAA player”. You can tag half of the population with these term but doesn’t mean they should get treated more leniently.


    What speed was she driving at for this to happen?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,510 ✭✭✭Wheety




  • Registered Users Posts: 436 ✭✭Girl Geraldine


    No it isn't blind to gender, you are right. But in my opinion there is good reason for that. An awful lot of the males in prison are there because they are actually dangerous, voilent or predatory types. It is a public danger to have them out on the street. When women commit crimes, they tend to be either non-violent, or if violent it is not the type of opportunistic predatory violence where they are a danger to the wider public, moreso it is associated with fighting to do with substance abuse issues, or petty theft would be the most common crime. These are better dealt with through treatment and interventions of one form or other.

    Justifiable imprisonment of women is generally reserved for the more extreme cases of intentional and very serious violence. An example of such would be the as the Mulhall Scissor Sisters. And even in that case, while what they did was wrong, one can at least understand the reasons for them doing it - they and their mother were subjected to months of bullying, voilence and sexual abuse by that man.

    Some poeple have drawn notice to the fact she is a young mother. Another reason why courts do not imprison young mothers is because they may wish to continue with family and have another child. It would be seen as disproportionate to effectively punish the woman by potentially denying her the chance to have a child while imprisoned. It could run foul of the consitution because under that there is the right to found a family.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,995 ✭✭✭downtheroad


    This man has been separated from his foot. Forever.

    She drove a car under the influence of alcohol, she hit a cyclist, she hit him at such a force that his foot was amputated from his body and remained wedged into the car so that she arrived home with it, she left the injured party at the side of the road to die (luckily he didn't).

    She is a thundering disgrace of a human being and is clearly not fit to raise children.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,762 ✭✭✭Pinch Flat


    Sho3King incident. They should really make an example of her. Drink driving and reckless driving has the potential to change lives forever and its not taken half a seriously as it should be.



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,284 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Well that's obvious incorrect on account of the fact that multiple people did infact say there should be no custodial sentence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭ratracer


    Sweet mother of F**k, the state of this thread!

    The idiots on here claiming that it’s only an accident, it could happen anyone really need to f**k off back under a rock. The idiot drunk driver that caused a life changing injury to an innocent member of the public should face the full rigours of the law, regardless of sex, marital status, parenthood etc!

    Not revoking their licence, not sending them to jail for grevious bodily harm is just wrong, and anyone excusing it is effectively condoning it.

    Driving is a privilege, but it’s also being in control of a deadly weapon. If you cause damage, you should face the consequences. I don’t think I’ve ever dealt as angry about a thread in here in decades!



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Did she accidentally drink before driving? Did she accidentally decide to drive under the influence of alcohol? Did she accidentally decide to drive off with the man's foot attached to her bumper?



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    That urban myth has been debunked several times on Boards.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 436 ✭✭Girl Geraldine


    Driving ban for 5 years, and community service is an appropriate sentence here. Maybe a suspended jail sentence at the most.

    She should not serve a custodial sentence. Jailing a young mother will have a profoundly negative effect on her children.

    People say "oh what about the Garda's kids" and all. Yeah fair enough, but what happened to him as an accident and there is nothing that can be done about it now. Just because there was an accident doesn't mean that they State should be pushing for her children to be deprived of their mother.

    Depending on the age of the children, if they mother is jailed, they could be very traumatised by that and not understand why their mother is being taken away from them. You just cannot intentionally do that to small children, unless the circumstances are so extreme that there is absolutely no reasonable alternative.

    Truth is, the injured man will be very well looked after by her insurance company and he will be entitled to receive the best treatment out there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 436 ✭✭Girl Geraldine


    She may have intentionally made very bad decisions but mowing down a Garda was almost certainly not intentional. I swear to got some people cannot seem to see the wood from the trees here.

    Intentionally drink driving does not equal to intentionally running over a person. It was an unfortunate and unintended consequence of the bad decision she made. It's not like she saw the man, pointed her car at him and accelerated towards him and shouted "take that" as he flew over the bonnet. Some of ye just cannot seem to make the distinction between premeditated intentional act and an unintended accident arising out of bad decisions and recklessness.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,256 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    In this case, assuming a positive breath test in station, the former leads to the latter. Drink driving is the wreckless act, whether an incident occurs or not.

    It will be interesting to see what charges are put. They cannot however make an example of her. If found guilfy of a serious charge there will be a ceiling on what sentence, including custodial can be imposed, and of course mitigation is then applied of which has already been posted. I would say a few months prison time will not alter the kids lives forever or impinge on her right to bear more. These things are what she jeopardised/impacted on all by herself. What happens now if out of her hands.

    Sadly, one man's life and career, and two families altered forever. Nobody wins here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 880 ✭✭✭mamax


    100% agree, can't believe some of the shite posted here.

    That woman should NEVER be let drive again, the second a person fails an alcohol breath test their licence should be suspended right away until trial.

    She drove drunk and maimed a person on a bike and left the scene, she left the guy for dead !!!

    He's not just a "cyclist" he's a man with a family and their lives have been changed forever because this woman drove drunk, no excuses she must face prosecution.

    Bollocks to anyone that thinks "parents" either male or female deserve Not to be jailed for crimes they commit because they have kids.



  • Registered Users Posts: 436 ✭✭Girl Geraldine


    I think at the end of the day the court will have to look at it and say well, where is the greater good here and will have to weigh up applying a harsh sentence with potentially trauma for small children versus recognising that there are totally innocent children tied up in this and that any sentence is effectively sentence against them as much as it is against the mother. Courts always have to consider the best interests of children first and foremost, and in this case the best interests of the children will certainly not be for them to be separated from their mother.

    The fact is, she will not be going to jail here. She will probably get a ban for some time, hoopefully community service or possibly a suspended sentence, and her insurance will pay compensation to the Garda.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,779 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    I'd be of the opinion that close passes and collisions should be treated as one in the same. Outcome, as tragic as it could be, shouldn't come into it. At the very least a monetary fine of value that it will be felt. I do like how in, possibly Denmark, fines are weighted against your income and / or wealth so that it is felt in an equitable fashion. A driving ban just leads to driving without insurance or license, a prison sentence isn't palatable for the amount they woudl have to give out.

    You are right in that a lengthy prison sentence won't achieve much as it hasn't been done much for similar offences and leaves room for her solicitor to appeal. It sadly, despite my earlier post, won't do much to alleviate sh1t driving. There isn't much else to say on the matter as the details are to scarce. Drink driving could be she had a few wines the night before and never realised (not an excuse but there is a differnece in intent) or she was in the bar for hours up until a few moments before hand. Neither are acceptable, both should be punished, but to the same extent is a hard sell. Her motherhood the same, it could be a devastating blow to the children or the best thing that ever happened to them. Hopefully if its the latter they will be pulled back, and if the former, that somehow it works out but nowadays, those kids will be ridiculed for a few years till they make it out of the area.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    jesus christ this thread.


    a couple of ye are a hair from setting her up as the victim here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,218 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    A deterrent and punishment. It's like everyone has one free pass to do something highly dangerous and life changing for someone.

    How often in threads have we complained about people given a suspended sentence after hit and runs etc?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,218 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    What a bizarre take. She drove off knowing she ran over a person without stopping to check on them. She could have left the man to die if his injuries were to the extent, as bad as they already are, if fast medical assistance wasn't offered



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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Do you have information as to how this incident happened?



This discussion has been closed.
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