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Housing supply issues affecting Europe -why?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    190k net migration in six years. If you don't think this has a major impact on the housing crisis in this country then you are deluded.

    If you think 190k people in the country in the last 6 years alone has had a minor impact, then you must also think that building 80 or 90k housing units would have no impact either?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,893 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I'll believe it when I see evidence, not your vitriol.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,553 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    again, yes immigration is adding to our issues, but not causing them



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,647 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Taking in millions of refugees is going to affect available supply surely?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭Luxembourgo


    Not only Irish people, existing immigrants.

    It's crazy how people think increasing demand (people) doesn't lead to an increase in the cost. Immigration is absolutely a factor, amongst others. We've added 10 percent in 10 years.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,639 ✭✭✭Montage of Feck


    Easy credit to buy cheap **** made in china.


    🙈🙉🙊



  • Registered Users Posts: 46 ShamanRing


    You are wasting your time with him, you can even provide links to evidence and he’ll avidly ignore them anyway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    I asked a simple question about housing and immigration on another thread and all these boys disappeared up their holes rahter than answer, onlly to re-appear merrily sounding off a few threads later.

    They dont mind looking silly, it's almost a religious belief situation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭Luxembourgo


    Would adding to a social housing list be evidence?

    If not please define what would constitute evidence



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    Ah yes, all the people arriving here are pitching tents in fields bought by and managed by multiple NGOs. These people would in no way ever look to rent privately or look to local authority for housing.

    You are right - Ireland is a semi-utopia where the laws of supply and demand are only ever exacerbated by greedy white Irish men looking to take advantage.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 739 ✭✭✭techman1


    Net migration to Europe and the West in general is biggest reason. People are leaving the authoritarian and badly run countries to live in Europe because of better standard of living

    The age of social media has made the reality of the good life in Europe immediately apparent, therefore People no longer want the tougher life in their own countries to make a go of it there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    The rise in prices in dublin. started about 4 years ago, I saw houses going for 100k to 150k in 2015. Affordable by ordinary workers, now gen z is screwed, unless they live at home, pay no rent, then they can maybe save up a deposit , houses go up due to lack of supply, plus inflation, building materials costs are up by 35 per cent , so we have 1000s of people bidding on the few houses left for sale



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,783 ✭✭✭GoneHome


    I can see his point of view, we live three miles out from a village in rural Co Limerick, three quarters of an hour from Limerick city, an hour from Cork city, a nice rural cottage to be bought here for €100k and maybe spend another €50k on it to bring up to standard, if a working person can't afford that kind of money there's something very wrong



  • Registered Users Posts: 506 ✭✭✭asdfg87


    I was toying with buying a doer-upper in Dublin around thje time you mention, at the time i remember seeing a few, the ones i remember were in Stonetbatter and Ringsend and came in under €150k. They needed complete refurb. I wonder what woumd they make today.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,469 ✭✭✭Shoog


    What most people who are concerned about these issues would like to see is greater equality and less exploitation everywhere. If the "colonial" exploitation of less developed countries ended then we wouldn't see the mass migrations which we currently do.

    No person really wants to leave their home place by choice.



  • Registered Users Posts: 506 ✭✭✭asdfg87


    I have been saying exactly this for years but most people everywhere dont care a sh1t about any other than themselves. i had this conversation with a friend yesterday and he said."i don't see anyone who is not weell off" he has two daughters in renterd accomodation Dublin?Galway. I said i do not know why i am worried if he thinks all ok it likely is. It was interesting conversation.


    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/double-digit-rent-hikes-for-city-tenants-as-cuckoo-fund-plans-to-beat-inflation-41823512.html

    Post edited by asdfg87 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,994 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    We could easily take in that number if we built up instead of out, we had 8m people before. Instead we object to any development isn't 3 bed semi detached houses with front and back gardens. We are destroying our countryside with more and more urban spread from our cities instead of building modern high density buildings in our cities.

    Its ironic in the woke age that people want to protect Georgian Dublin, which was built on money from slavery, while happily destroying our semi natural areas.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,469 ✭✭✭Shoog


    They simply cannot make high rise accommodation which is affordable to anyone else but millionaires. The building industry in Ireland is stuck firmly in the past and they neither have the skilled labour or infrastructure needed to build high density housing. It simply costs to much to make flats.

    Ireland boasts about its modernity - but its all lies.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,994 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    It's not like low rise low density is affordable either. The status quo isn't going to fix the problems, so why not try modern high density building in our cities like our European cousins manage vs 3 bed semis destroying our countryside.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,469 ✭✭✭Shoog


    I agree, but it wont happen with the building industry we have who are incapable of delivering to the required specification at an affordable cost.

    Its simply a pipe dream to imagine that it will happen.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 506 ✭✭✭asdfg87


    That's an interesting point as i am advocating high-rise but only in the centre of our larger cities for the very people you mention. My thinking is if these wealthy people were accomodated in lixery apartments in the centre of town it would place less demands on the regular house market. With apartments we could go up i suppose about 6 floors in towns and more in Dublin. I wonder if it was broken cost to build apartment block v semi per sq metre including site. In the suberbs. I would go with terrace housing back to back with like possibly access lane at back where needed, access to the back not as important anymore as coal pretty well gone, heat pumps the way forward it seems. I always think some of the old terrace housing around the country classy. I actually have seen a development where mosern 4 bed houses were built side by side, designs tweeked so they looked different and it worked.

    Ireland modern? we want to get out more... there has been some awful desing rubbish in recent years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,553 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    hahaha, jesus, these lads truly are mental, sealioning, and wokeism, fcuking hell!

    once again, the so called laws of economics such as supply and demand are not actual laws, as they have never been confirmed, by any sort of rigorous processes, similar to scientific laws have been....... they are in fact a myth, i.e. there is no such thing as a market equilibrium, fact!



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,553 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,610 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    There are a combination of factors at play in Ireland that have led to the current supply crisis, since the subject is Europe the one thing we all have in common is the European Central Bank and its enablement of magic money theory (MMT) for the past decade. Ireland's 20th century housing boom took off on the back of economic reform following the disastrous inflationary policies of the Irish government, late 60s, & 1970s that led to a grinding recession during the '80s that forced that reform. In '90s Ireland, we have favourable demographics (often coined as the Popes Children), collapse of the communist bloc, a technology revolution in communications and the anticipation of the Euro (people old enough might remember the '92-'93 ERM fiasco, currency pegs don't last!), after that the interest rates came down and stayed down since. After 10 years of the boom there was no shortage of housing supply, in fact during the 2000s we ending up building houses to house the people who came here for the purpose of building said houses. There are other local factors at play in supply especially the consequences of the 1963 planning act, the psychological effect of the Ballymun project on high rise in Ireland, the specification inflation in building standards (you cannot build the house your parents did decades ago), plus the upfront cost of infrastructure services to the building plot and the issue of non functional property management companies, there are other factors if you want to dig.

    The actual consequence of cheap credit is the lack of affordable housing or shelter since anyone at the end of the credit chain cannot borrow at the cheap rate the developers do or compete with cash rich international pension funds that have lots of retiring boomers (born between 1946 and 1964) to service and need an 8% yield. This is where ECB MMT comes in to play and clashes with the policies enacted following the bubble burst in Ireland to create the situation we have in Ireland today. Why are German and Israeli funds buying up pre '63 property on Dublins North Circular Road and across the city?

    The ECB's low interest rates in the early 2000s facilitated a speculative property bubble in Ireland. A few years in the aftermath of the crash, the Central Bank of Ireland policy changed to set the mortgage rules to keep the price of properties down, once the oversupply of properties from the previous boom had cleared and both prices and rents started to rise again circa 2014/2015. That policy put a price ceiling on domestic buyers and investors and limited their activity in the Irish market.

    In 2014, the ECB began its MMT experiment and Mario Draghi introduced negative interest rates and it's asset purchases collapsed the sovereign bond yields (i.e government debt). That left pension funds and insurance companies in trouble, insurance companies responded by raising premiums, and the pension funds who need the yield moved in to property. In 2013 the Irish government introduced Real Estate Investment Trust (REITs) as a means to re-float the property market and resolve the banks bad balance sheets resting in NAMA as a consequence of the cheapest bailout ever!

    Another consequence of the central bank policy is the increase in rent prices. The policy goal was to limit the prices at which residential properties can be sold, as a consequence dis-incentivising developers from building and by extension reducing the supply of rental accommodation, so prices continue to rise. Now lets throw in rent pressure zones (Introduced in 2016 and expanded since) in the mix, some of the landlords did survive the crash, but were renting at below-market value in 2016 (and were trapped indexing their increases to this below-market rent) - they are now selling out. This is why the foreign funds are buying up the North Circular road. What's the solution? Oh I know, lets tax vacant land, i.e lets add another cost to the business of property development - wonder how that works out . . . . the investment funds buy it up.

    Essentially in Ireland and much of the EU we have government and ECB monetary expansion policy conflicting. In the process we are being ground up by a combination of MMT and Irish government using price controls to a point that suppress building below the costs of supplying housing. I don't know the other property markets across the EU, I suspect similar conflict between property price controls and monetary expansion is playing out.


    There is a sting in the tail to all this, people who vote in Irish elections are angry, while people who don't vote are buying the property.

    Sinn Féin has achieved its highest ever level of popular support and holds a commanding lead over the two other main parties, a new opinion poll reveals.

    Amid rising public concern about the housing crisis, Sinn Féin on 36% is now more popular than Fine Gael (20%) and Fianna Fail (15%) combined.


    source

    What do you think a woke national socialist government is going to do after they have established a grip on power? The first issue Sinn Fein (and their coalition partners) in government will face is bringing the establishment to heel, the Irish establishment has long been at war with them. If they succeed, their power is consolidated, they are going to move on to "nationalise" like Venezuela did.



    Ultimately I expect an EU sovereign debt crisis is baked in, timing I can't give you, the EU's Green new gravy train is an attempt to stave it off an EU credit collapse. In the meantime while investment funds can get what seems like "infinite" cheap funds, buy up the NCR, then rehypothecate it. There must ultimately be a collapse, the investment funds probably don't realise that North Circular rent yields drop substantially when a recession hits and they will be forced liquidations, but who will the buyers be?

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,469 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Its never as simple as a single easy cause, this is a complex crisis which has been brewing for at least a decade. The problem is that the current and previous governments neither understood or were willing to intervene in an appropriate way to defuse it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,553 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    100%, id argue its been brewing since truly the 90's, but of course thats debatable....



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,620 ✭✭✭maninasia


    Housing prices have also gone up tremendously in many countries in Asia and also north America. The global low inerest rates are the main cause whereby money can be borrowed cheaply by big funds and regular joe soaps.

    Lack of regulation stopping outside investors commoditising the market is also a big issue i.e. governments allowing too much of a free market...and legislators themselves enjoying to make profits from it.


    Third factor worldwide is rising populations but by no means the main one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭Mr. teddywinkles


    Deleted



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,553 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    yup, this is a global phenomenon, and yes, low rates have been playing a critical role in this outcome, but only a part, financialisation has failed, we have to accept the dangers of this approach, but we keep defaulting to its thinking, we have to stop this now, we re racing towards another minsky moment!



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  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ Lexie Long Rebellion


    With high house prices we are a rich country to f***ing hell with the citizens



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