Marathon Improvers Thread.

+1 for stryd.

If racing the marathon and trying to get your best time? I don't imagine that pace and heart rate will correlate in parallel lines. My experience is that over most race distances for non elites, HR will have an upward trajectory, while you hope pace stays level.

This was Seville back in February and I kept an eye on 3 data fields, lap pace, power and heart rate.

I knew from experience where my HR should roughly be at different stages over the marathon and just after halfway I started to see 170 and knew I had to watch myself , as once I go over that, it ain't coming back down.

I was a little undercooked for Seville and it got quite warm from halfway point.

My average HR was 165 and when doing MP miles for next marathon, I'll be targeting that but also paying attention to stryd and pace and hoping all 3 line up.

Pace will be based off recent race times with a lead up 10 mile and half.

Absolutely, over 5k and my recent 5 miler, just give it a blast.

Over the marathon? Not for me, I'll be a lot more cautious, could be a confidence thing.

How does effort translate on race day if you have a specific time in mind? Lazare said he had 3.30 in mind so why not train in the traditional manner to achieve 8.00 per mile instead of muddying the water with effort? The bottom line is for me pace is just easier, effort is to much effort for me now, I might change my mind in a years time but there you have it.

On race day you'll have no choice but go by effort. It's all well and good having a time in mind and again, all going well that will line up to the expected effort level but come race day, if you stick rigidly to a pace and ignore how you're feeling you're on a hiding to nothing, especially if things aren't ideal like weather, energy levels, niggles.

Also, I think it's all too common a mistake to chase paces in training without zoning in on effort. You'll often not get the planned stimulus if you're running harder than you should be. All well and good having a target threshold pace but if you're not adjusting to how you feel on any given day, well you ain't running at threshold!

I certainly considered my position before posting and justified myself as an improver in my own mind. Haha.

To be fair I was delighted to see this thread resurrected as I'll get a lot from it.

Thats fine, and I only suggested you run a 10 mile and half to get a better handle on your level before racing. Im still sure that racing by heart rate is a bad idea but it looks like im the only one. I really do hope you get the best performance possible from your training. On a side note its a public forum, you can ignore any or all posts/comments randomers make . Thats the best part of it.

Me too, I cannot say how much my running has improved by discussions like this on Boards. This place is a goldmine and all you guys are fantastic.

That's exactly what I'm getting at but not to that extreme. I might have a target pace of 6.10 for threshold but I sleep poorly the night before for example. I feel like 6.10 is a few notches beyond the effort level I'm looking for so I scale back a bit and might run at 6.20 as an example. If I rigidly stick to the pace target I'm more flogged than I should be.

Everyone is different. I just know from my own experience I need to handle lack of sleep and work and life pressures more than some others maybe. So effort levels are key to me. Each to their own.

Ok, now I fully get you and I'm in complete agreement.

I'd say the only difference between our managing effort levels, is that I'll drop a session in favour of just getting a run in, maybe you adjust pace/ concentrate on effort.

When I do a session (only when I feel ready and won't jeopardise work) I tend to hit paces as I know even starting I'm in a good place. I probably need to do more sessions but I can't take the risk (I run with a few groups during the week for work and have primary and secondary school athletic classes, so need to be on my toes)

I nearly always get my 8 hours and I monitor my HRV every morning, I find it a really good indicator for how well a session is going to go.

I think having yourself & FinnC in here with all the other posters will be great, fairly sure you talked about mentors or getting other perspectives on ones training in your log and I agree. Sounding boards are good, especially if they stop us making stupid mistakes.

In Seville training, 4 weeks out, I thought I was invincible and a couple of faster runners helped pace me on an 18 miler with 3x3 miles at half marathon pace. If I had of listened to my body's effort levels I would have known things were getting tasty. One of the runner's pushed the last mile of the last set (he's a 60 min 10 miler) and I went with him, so stupid and it pushed me over the edge and I ended up with a 4 week taper instead of 2.

I'd say your recent race times line up nicely for a crack at sub 3, with the addition of a coach and a more mileage.

Looking forward to following your progress again.

I'm doing DCM too - changing gears from previous Marathon attempts with a new approach.

(1) A lot of HR training - Easy to HR / Moderate-Steady to HR / Some long runs to HR / MP Sessions will be mixed e.g. today I have 12x1k on/off (on/off to a time but NOT to let HR go above 170 - if it does, back off the pace) - others could be 1 hour at MP.

(2) Doing a Steady Run on Sat followed by Long on Sunday - make sure legs are tired.

(3) Doing faster sessions to a pace that's set to a % of MP. (+ the recovery is to be kept strong to maintain HR)

(4) Mid week MP sessions will increase gradually over time - all with a 1km Float recovery thats ~50 secs slower than MP.

e.g. 12x1km on/off - 8x2k -1k off / 6x3k - 1k off / 5x4k - 1k off etc etc

The magic is in the Float as your HR doesn't decrease that much.

(5) Long run to HR - more moderate than easy with segments at Mara HR longest run upto 40k

So - my week will have

1x faster session (as above - 10k pace)

1x MP session (as above)

1 Steady Saturday (45 to 60 mins at 10 beats below MP)

1 x long Sunday - Steady HR with MHR segments.

Seems a lot - however the Speed session is short & very manageable & the Sat/Sun are at 'steady effort for the majority' - I'm managing it quite well and have been using this approach of training for 10-12 weeks now.

Main aim is to make the legs as fatigue resistant as possible - I'll be doing a lot of the longer sessions on the lumpy side of the PP or using the DCM route where I can (Mile 2-7 is uphill) + as the long run progresses - I'll get onto the other parts towards Crumlin.

What's your max/resting HR? The 170 doesn't tell us much on its own. Looks spicy enough alright. Have been trying to use lumpy routes for all my own steady runs too - important I think.

‘Steady’, like ‘Tempo’, is a moveable feast!

Looking at half marathon races to prep for DCM....not sure whether to do Clonmel (28th of August) or Charleville (25th off September) or look elsewhere. Clonmel seems a bit early and Charleville seems a bit late 😂

Looking forward to the 10 miler tomorrow....the test drive in the Vaporflys went grand on Thursday so interested to see how they perform in a race situation

Sounds like you need to check out the Sub3 thread then. (Not saying this one isn't useful!)