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Excellent article on how important small landlords are and how screwing them over hasn't worked

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical


    Maybe read back over the last few of your posts on this thread and what you have been asking.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,811 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    I know a few small landlords and not one is a member of the Ipoa. If the IPOA were involved in lobbying to prevent more rental units, it doesn't look like they were very successful.

    New build-to-rent developments has brought thousands of new rentals to the market in the past few years and a few small landlords buying a one-off couldn't compete with the big players and deep pockets of foreign investors and pension funds. No amount of lobbying would have stopped those developments as huge numbers of properties are needed for the increased population.

    Small landlords are going the way of the corner shop.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,098 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I'll take your inability to answer that to mean, no, they've not had any success. So no they have zero effect on supply or rents.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,098 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    59.0% of landlords had a total gross income of less than €60,000. At the other end of the scale, 5.1% had a total gross income of over €200,000

    I don't think small LLs are competing with large landlords in anyway. The vast majority only have one or two properties they are not growing a portfolio of properties. But the current legislative and tax regime massively favors economy of scale to make it viable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical


    However you were disputing that small landlords were opposing inward investment by large funds. I provided evidence of a representative body lobbying against such funds. How successful this lobbying effort has been is a different issue to the earlier one you got wrong.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical


    Whilst it wasn't my original point, there is evidence of the government moving against increased investment in the rental market.

    The Government is set to block investment funds from buying up entire housing estates, according to senior figures involved in the process.

    The Irish Times reports that senior Coalition sources confirmed the move had been agreed between the parties, although discussions are continuing on how best to implement the policy.

    [Source]

    While you can never say whether a particular lobbying effort has been successful, this change in government policy would very much be in line with the aims of that representative body mentioned earlier.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,098 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I asked what lobbying. You provided one link behind paywall. The only other link I found myself was also behind a paywall. The information the IPOA provide is mostly only available via (there's a pattern here) subscription.

    I'm still none the wiser what influence or value of such lobbying. Considering the changes over the last twenty years have been almost entirely negative for the small LL. It's impossible to change that narrative.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical


    Are you really finding all this hard to believe? From their website:

    WHAT DO I GET FOR MY MEMBERSHIP?

    * Lobbying & Representation

    ...

    It is the first item on their list of things the representative body provide for members. I have already provided links that show that they are communicating with Oireachtas members arguing that the big danger is oversupply in the market due to these funds. Then I provided a link to an article where government are planning to limit the impact of such funds. I can't prove that one is linked to the other. That is never possible with lobbying.

    Look, I'm not against small landlords but my view is that the tenant will benefit from greater number of units introduced to the market. This is very understandably opposed by existing small landlords and it looks like things are going their way with regard to government policy. I would argue that this is against the interest of the tenant whose choice is being limited but there you are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,897 ✭✭✭amacca


    Agree....to me this is why the govt shouldn't be let near the market....no controls, no meddling..... they've proved themselves inept at best over the past 2 decades....if there was a fire yo put out they would probably attempt to remedy that by chucking deodorant cans into it and pouring petrol on it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,098 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    They can lobby all they want. They are completely detached from reality. They've never had any influence. In my opinion not even with landlords. If the govt decide to do anything with large investment landlords. It will be for political reasons nothing to do with small LLs or any lobbying.

    Tenants and REITs have got everything they've asked for, for many years. The market is exactly what they asked for. That's been the only successful lobbying.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,309 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    I'm a small landlord. I've had two sets of tenants in nearly 10 years.

    The current market is nuts, I'd be much happier if supply would increase and reduce the narrative of landlord / tenant tension.

    Think of it from a small landlords perspective, the biggest risk is a bad tenant and the biggest barrier to getting rid of a bad tenant would be the lack of somewhere else for them to go. A former colleague once told me that the best advice he ever got when becoming a manager was to never sit between a direct report and the door when they might not like what you have to say. Fighting additional supply as a small landlord is akin to blocking the exit in the biggest risk scenario.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,098 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    If you are going link dump to a paywall, perhaps you could comment on what its about and your opinion on it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭daithi7


    Because there's enough in the introduction of the piece, which is freely viewable from the link i posted, to make the point imho.

    Here it is FYI:

    Why flood of supply to housing market by private landlords is a concern for rental sector


    One third of properties for sale in some locations comes from landlords. Photo: RollingNews.ie


    Mark Keenan

    June 27 2022 02:30 AM

    While a cooling of the rate of house price inflation is generally to be welcomed, the flood of supply to the market of properties brought for sale largely by small private landlords, and its impact on property inflation in many areas, is in fact a cause for concern.

    Because these are the people whose properties are supplying house shares and apartment lets at the cheaper end of the rental market......



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,098 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Its much better to write that than dump the link.

    I'm not sure that people get that current legislation encourages cheaper rentals to leave the market and more expensive ones to join the market.



  • Registered Users Posts: 994 ✭✭✭rightmove


    good point. But in effect the cheap rental (small LL) are leaving and not being replaced and this leads to a percenage deplacement adding to to housing crisis



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,098 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    More specifically it creates shortage at the low end of the market and hat generally spreads upwards.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Small landlords are going. The current attempts to assist tenants who lose out as a result are making things worse. If the tenant of a small LL moves out now, the LL will think twice about offering the property for letting again. Many will sell and rid themselves of the hassle.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,098 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Lots of them though...


    Over the past five years, the total number of landlords associated with tenancies registered with the Residential Tenancies Board (RTB) has fallen by more than 5,000 to under 170,000. At the same time there has been a rise in the level of institutional investment in the ‘Build / Buy to Let’ market which has led to an increase in the proportion of rented dwellings owned by landlords with the largest portfolios. Notwithstanding what is clearly an important trend in the changing make-up of the rental sector, the proportion of properties owned by landlords with more than 100 residential tenancies is still less than about 6% of private rented tenancies registered with the RTB. Landlords with one or two tenancies make up around 85% of private landlords and 53.5% of private rented tenancies in the sector

    My bolding...

    https://www.rtb.ie/images/uploads/general/RTB_Small_Landlord_Report_July_2021.pdf



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,545 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    According to Daft since 2017 there are 17k less tenancies. And it continuing to decline. As well 7k LL have left the market. That is a glaring statics. When you consider that in the same period that Reits have probably put 5k+ properties into the rental market smaller LL are hemorrhaging at an astonishing rate

    Slava Ukrainii



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    There may be a lot of them but the numbers are reducing at a time when demand for accommodation is increasing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,811 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    I wonder if the latest changes will make a few more think of leaving...

    Longer notice periods and extra paperwork that small landlords need to be aware of if they are issuing a notice of termination for any reason, eg, anti-social behaviour, rent arrears, selling etc. From 6th July, the RTB require a Notice of Termination Return Form sent on the same day as the notice is issued to tenants, or the notice will be INVALID.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,545 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    There is nearly 4 k of the present houses for sale that are ex rental properties. It 17k of ex rentals sold and not replaced. This indicates that nearly 4 k/ year are leaving. The trend will continue at best. At worse it will accelerate the exit. But sure they want professional LL 's. They are getting what they want and the cheaper end of the market is f@@king off. Rents will continue in an upward trend.

    Post edited by Bass Reeves on

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,811 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    If professional landlords means less of the dodgy small guys, that's not a bad thing. I don't see how it will make renting cheaper though, the big professional landlord organisations charge high rents (in Dublin at least, no idea about the rest of the country). On the one hand, individual landlords are treated like a business and expected to keep up to date with constant changes to legislation (which is normal for all business sectors) but, OTOH, they are not taxed like other businesses.

    I'm not a landlord but know a few, and the government seem to regularly sneak in changes that affect landlords without much notice. The tenant charities like Threshold or Focus have information before the RTB put it on their website. The latest changes for example, it was difficult enough to find, I looked at the RTA, Planning, and a few other places and eventually found it in new legislation for builders. It's like the government didn't want small landlords to know about it...



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭notahappycamper


    Sorry for going off topic but you might know the answer to this: I’m planning on selling my property. There is a fixed term lease in place for a duration of 1 year since 26/9/2021. Do I have to wait until 26/9/2022 before issuing the notice of termination or since the notice period of 152 days goes beyond the expiry date of the lease can I issue the notice of termination now?



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,545 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    No issue notice of termination now. You give the termination date as the end of the lease period or the statutory notice period.

    I think you need to change the registration of the lease into your name with the RTB. When issuing the notice make sure to follow RTB rules.

    Look up there website

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,513 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    I remember there as a thread about this some time ago and someone, linked an RTB case. If memory serves me right, notice could not be served prior to end of term in the same way a rent review cannot be issued prior to the term from the last one elapsing. You may be better separating that out into a thread of its own, you will probably get a more definitive answer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,538 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Small landlords "supply housing" in the same way that English absentee landlords supplied land in the 19th century.

    Namely they just take already existing supply out of your reach and then rent it back to you.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 14,117 Mod ✭✭✭✭pc7


    Might have mentioned it on this thread already, but my tenant left the country so I'm currently doing it up and estate agent coming next week to hopefully get it on the market and get rid. Have been lucky and only ever had 1 bad tenant in almost 18 years, but the way things are going and the prospect of SF coming in and even less rights as a landlord I just couldn't risk going back into rental market. Hopefully now it can sell quick and I'm done with it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,545 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    He should confirm.it with the RTB, but the rent review term applies to the actual date the rent is reviewed ( changed) you an serve it before that date.

    If he cannot give notice u til after the 12 months it's a 180 day notice period

    Slava Ukrainii



This discussion has been closed.
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