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Mass Protest in the Netherlands by Farmers.

1235789

Comments

  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    You haven’t discussed anything. You made some weird accusations and said I wasn’t worth talking to because my avatar was a bonobo. I really want to know what point you had to make.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Bonobos are closest to man.

    They're not really Bobble. They're the same distance away from us as Chimpanzees and they deviate from each other by around 0.3% genetically*. Though they are interesting as a good example of how culture and cultural politics can often inform perceptions, even science. Bonobos are a largely matriarchal great ape, who are less aggressive than chimps and use sexual contact as a way to group bond and diffuse conflict(though it's not nearly so simple). This appealed to the counterculture "hippie" and first wave feminist generation in the 60's and 70's when great ape research was really kicking off, so much was made of these traits. They were also seen as vegatarian too, which they're not.

    So the popularity of this closest to us notion springs from that background culture. If on the other hand we had the same culture as say Ancient Rome, they'd be far more interested in pushing the more aggressive, warlike, patriarchal and hierarchical Chimpanzee as "closest to us" and would relegate the Bonobos to a lesser position.

    Neandertals were seen as brutish and stupid "cavemen", even their name is the only archaic human name that has made it into common parlance as a negative. This was because they were discovered and described at the cusp of truly modern science, the new Darwinism and a large overlap of old style religion, even European superiority and racism. They upended all of the above and the religious saw them as "fallen" thrown out of Eden humans and European science had to see them as different and "not us". That stuck for a long time. Well, until genetics came along and showed we carried their DNA and they were very much "indo European" in range and pale of skin, often with mousey, even red hair. So they went from this in our reconstructions:

    To this in recent times:

    Funny that...😁

    A much more recent example of how current culture can inform perceptions in science was the discovery a couple of years ago of the burial of a woman(Altai IIRC) who was found with weapons and accessories normally found with male burials and in the literature there was debate if she was "non binary or Trans", because that's a current cultural thing. Such burials have come up before and no such hypotheses were put forward and were explained away quite differently. It's quite fascinating how such biases can be at play.

    But I digress... 😁







    *by comparison if you stand me, a native European beside a native Papuan, on archaic admixture alone I'll have up to 2%(or 4% by some measures) Neandertal DNA, he'll have less and they'll be different genes from a different population and he'll have up to 6% Denisovan DNA which I won't have at all. Stand a lad from the Congo beside the pair of us and he could quite understandably and reasonably conclude we're a pair of feckin' cavemen, because he'll have neither.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,107 ✭✭✭amacca


    Grand so! Prepare to pay a lot more for your food.

    Cost of production + a margin to make it worthwhile.

    And increases as smaller farmers get driven out of business.


    Then you can pay the price the larger factory farms eventually dictate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,707 ✭✭✭Bobblehats


    A fountain as ever 🙇‍♂️ I'm neanderthal all day over that; chilling parallels couldn't have profiled myself any better thanks wibbs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,850 ✭✭✭Lillyfae


    @[Deleted User] but this is what the issue is. The government wants farmers to produce less animal based protein and instead move to sustainable farming practices.



  • Posts: 30 [Deleted User]


    ...

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    We should be paying more for food. The disconnect between production costs and retail costs is the very thing that is destroying smaller farms. And when you get a subsidy it makes sense to grow as cheaply as possibly. I'm not in favour of 0 subsidies but farmers (not the ones who have their fingers in the other pies) need to be careful what they wish for.

    Subsidies have people thinking it makes sense for chicken to be under €1/100g and beef not far off. In Ireland especially we're being ridiculous with expanding animal herds.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,107 ✭✭✭amacca


    I mostly agree but the problem is its difficult to see the system paying more for food until they've squeezed the life out of the producers and there are shortages.



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  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Therein lies the astroturfing issue. Like the "Right to Farm" Act in the states, supported all the way by the processors and distributors but framed as being for farmers.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Now you’ve been educated, do you still take offence to my avatar? Is it still a nefarious representation of some ulterior motives I hold?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    You're the chap who seem to think that using the word "European" to describe the native people of Europe is not perfectly normal as per the dictionary but instead that European refers only to those people who happen to reside in Europe at any point in time. Most people know that this is balderdash but that won't deter ya.

    You're the chap who had to be corrected on his attempt to claim that the word "extinct" can't be used to refer to a distinct group of people

    Presumably you''ll be off to some Mohawk forum soon to explain to them that theres no actual difference between them and Europeans who dispossesed them, its all just a question of geographic location. 😂

    Gwan, follow those parlour tricks with defining what a woman is. That'll be a giggle.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Dig up man. I’m happy with your definition of European now: people who inhabit Europe or are of European descent. Why are you now arguing against your own definition


    I actually want to have a debate on substance. The only way that can happen though is if we both agree on what we mean. Which is why I want to know what this “death cult” is

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users Posts: 273 ✭✭Labaik


    Isn't that the whole point we are trying to make? Its not even big news because the media will not report it.


    Looks a small enough protest alright.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    Shots fired at A USA rally would be hearing about it for weeks.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,611 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Shots fired or multiple fatalities? Shots fired would barely even register on local news.

    Bad comparator TBF, the cops over there shot a lad last week 60 times, yes 60. Then they handcuffed him. You are dealing with a different animal over there.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's only when a classroom full of kids gets shot that U.S. shootings will really make the news.

    Even then its only for a day or two.



  • Registered Users Posts: 273 ✭✭Labaik


    But a computer hacking in Iran that caused a fire in a steel factory made BBC news.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    So? The news cycle on the bbc was dominated by Boris last week.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,611 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Oh I see now why certain individuals seem overly invested in this non global story.

    The lizard people want to control the food or some other similar scutter?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,211 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    His point I presume is how climate activism is largely confined to rich White people.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    Russia want to Control food no lizard people in site.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    If that photo is true and not bring given much coverage how can anybody not ask why?

    If farmers here did that and it wasn't hot news and lots of coverage I'd be asking why not. There's an agenda there somewhere.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You me and many other's would have probably starved to death along time ago.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    And not to forget poor countries that cant grow food importing it. What are they going to say to the people of Africa. Sorry we cant produce food for you because C02...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,479 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    A lot of progressive movements in the world have been white wealthy movements. It wasn't poor people setting up the RSPCA etc. Many Irish republicans were from wealthy backgrounds. Poor people are worried about putting their next meal on the table not rising Co2 levels.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    thats some presumption based on their posts. It’s been repeated claims that the “western media” aren’t covering the story.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    If the farmers did it in Ireland you’d expect a lot of coverage in Ireland.


    The days of the actual protest there was a lot of coverage here and internationally. I posted multiple links already but I’m happy to find more if you want.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭olestoepoke


    RTE is a government mouthpiece, we all know the connections it's been well documented. I'd say the Irish government are **** bricks. Sleepy Eamon, Leo the leak and mr Burns all know it could easily happen here.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Why must immigration be the answer? Why don't governments in Europe, if population decline is bad, actually address the issue to the public, and come up with some solutions to boosting the birth rates of the native population? Why is it seemingly discussed behind closed doors and then no official response, except for turning a blind eye to the illegal migrants who are coming to Europe in ever increasing numbers (in as much as you can trust the numbers - after all there's nobody standing with a clipboard to register all the dinghies and boats brought in by the smuggling gangs).



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,479 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Well if it was up to me I'd just let the population decline and aim for degrowth. That goes against the capitalist way though where increasing economic growth and GDP is all that matters so immigration will always make up for declining birth rates in places like Ireland.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    They aren't covering the story. Just like they didn't really cover the Canada trucker convoy story.


    Compare that to the coverage of the 'Me Too' movement - which was basically confined to the internet. But the media stirred it up and blew up everything around that movement. Because it was a convenient Good vs Evil narrative and it made people angry.


    By contrast, the Dutch farmers, the Canadian truckers, these protests are complicated and scary to the media elites because they threaten the climate message. Sky News used to be my go-to channel but nowadays it's like a Greenpeace propaganda channel. They simply don't want to listen to the voices of Dutch farmers.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Exactly this, but you'll be Told your a conspiracy theorist Bear.

    It was the same with Covid

    RTE ain't covering it 'properly' because they don't want people to see it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,611 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Was the minority of Canadian truckers protesting about climate change, thought they were anti vax fuckwíts?

    Either way it was extensively covered in Europe.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,009 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Immigration is the answer because the human condition must be subverted to corporate interests at all times.

    If you stay home and raise your kids in a single income household you are not out slaving to generate tax revenue for the government and the price of homes can't be doubled. The same if you prioritise a work life balance that is oriented to your family. The message is clear, stop having kids and spend your money on rent, iPhones and lattes instead.

    Our culture has become one of disposable consumerism and outsourcing, even to the point that we have outsourced bearing and raising the next generation of Irish children. This all started with that scumbag Charlie McCreevy and tax individualization and will end with the upcoming referendum to remove the constitutional recognition that women should not be forced to work while raising kids, because raising children is seen as having little or no value in society. That is what we are today as a society, a culture amusing itself to death that places zero value on family.

    But back on topic, I see the Greens are pushing for EXACTLY the same tagets through exactly the same methods as the Dutch:

    No wonder the media isn't eager to cover events in Holland too closely, they don't want to be giving anybody any ideas.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    They covered both. I posted many examples of coverage. What kind of proof do you need? When is the coverage at a sufficient level for you?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,107 ✭✭✭amacca


    It's absolutely moronic that the powers that be want to reduce slaughter age....

    That simply incentivizes more intensive style of production and more heads/throughput imo

    One has to wonder why? ....the greens want reduced emissions but they want to do it in a way that benefits the industries around the farmer and squeezes the farmer out


    They are pushing for changes that will result in more intensification, favour the large intensive operators and probably result in more GHG production........I have so little faith in the greens or farm organisations/advisory services etc when I see the **** being pushed now its not funny



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,009 ✭✭✭conorhal


    It makes less than no sense, unless there is some other agenda at play...

    I mean, nobody's demanding the same emissions cuts from the airline industry or data centres, just the farmers... you have to wonder why?

    You could I suppose make an argument for the cuts with regards the Netherlands, farming there is about as intensive as it gets, but Ireland with its small farms bound by bio-diverse hedge-rows where cattle are outdoors most of the year and fed on grass bares absolutely no comparison when it comes to emissions compared to the Dutch cattle that are grain fed in warehouses, yet no account is taken for that.

    I think partly it's down to the greens wanting to force people to become vegetarian by making meat unsustainably expensive, or perhaps there's more to it than that... perhaps this guy has a point or two to his analysis about EU policy.





  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Yup. The vast majority of movements and revolutions in the Western world have been driven by the middle classes. As you note the poor are concerned with the basic realities. The rich are protected and protectionist of the status quo that supports them. It's the middle that kick off when they get squeezed too far.

    I'd have the same opinion. Degrowth, which is also a huge win for the environment. It would be a win even if we stayed on our present course of extreme throwaway consumerism. It's basic maths. Halve the number of people and you halve the amount of energy and resources and waste. But like you say the current capitalist model that drives that throwaway consumerism and constant boom and bust cycle is dead set against that, because more people means more consumers and producers(and the boom/bust cycles concentrate the money among fewer people) and a lot of the environmentally minded folks out there support this same more people stuff, or don't see it as a problem, or one we can fix by going more "green".

    The same Western consumerist economics also drives what Conorhal noted; outsourcing. Outsourcing to cheaper places with cheaper peoples to make more stuff that the richer peoples will consume while it decimates their ability to make stuff locally. America, the biggest economy on the planet is a good example. Their wealthy started to outsource manufacturing which tore the heart out of their local manufacturing while their middle and low income wages stagnated and their rich/poor wealth divide has grown to a degree not seen since their Gilded Age(put it this way; the US has higher wealth inequality than Russia and we rightfully see Russia as an oligarch state run by criminals). And as Conor also noted we've even started to "outsource" having kids to feed this economic model. Though I would differ in the whys compared to Conor. I as ever follow the money. IMHO one big reason feminism and women's equality got and gets support from Western big business and government is feck all to do with equality, but much more to do with tapping into a previously largely untapped "resource". Literally half the population. It doubled the numbers of consumers and producers. It also monetised what was once off the books labour. The middle class woman working in a corporation is an earner and consumer and what was once "free" is now monetised and taxable in childcare even housework. Ker-ching. But of course the same woman and man in her life usually has to delay having a family until she and he is established in their career and financially stable enough to be able to afford a place to live and start a family, which in most cases will be smaller than previous generations. Where once an average single wage* could afford a house and the raising of a family of three or four or more kids.





    * in the "old" setup it wouldn't even have to be a man's wage. A neighbour of mine I knew when I was a kid was widowed in her early 30's and even back then in the bad old days of inequality for women, was able to raise three kids and provide and keep a roof over their heads. I know it was a struggle at times, but she could do it and in a "nice neighbourhood" with it. A relative of mine did similar when her deadbeat husband fecked off and left her. On another thread hereabouts a poster now in her sixties did similar as a single mum. These days that would be extremely difficult to do for a working woman and "easier" for those relying on social welfare supports.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,479 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    A lot of prominent environmentalists talk about degrowth too though. Degrowth also means having less stuff, less opportunities, less items available in supermarkets, less holidays, less money to spend. Most of the population would prefer the current model to the realities of degrowth, so how do you deal with that?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    I think at some point anyway, we will have to deal with it. We'll have little choice. Though the worry is that point will come when it's too late. People are very "local" and short term in our thinking. If it isn't hitting us now and in front of us, we tend to at best pay lip service to it happening elsewhere or in some future.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,125 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    The green movement, like many before it in the past, has been co-opted by corporate interests looking to make a quick buck.

    Thats why you have players like Gates buying farmland and pushing for less cattle, while also investing heavily in fake meats. Its about making money.

    Same as how nuclear energy was to be shut in Germany and the shortfall made up by gas, for those pulling the string and advocating for X policy its ultimately about making money.

    The largest scale farmers will get by okay from all this, if anything they will benefit as it will make smaller farms non-viable, which then allows big farmers to amass more land and market share. I wouldnt be surprised if certain big scale farms are lobbying this particular green policy too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,212 ✭✭✭Thinkingaboutit


    I see that post was thanked 30 times or so. Essentially because of Science! or the Green Religion, a highly food producing economic sector needs to be destroyed. The fallout of the Russian invasion of Ukraine (in the wake of which Russia, PRC and India use food and fertiliser as diplomatic weapons and its grain cannot be sufficiently export and is oft stolen by Russia, who themselves are a vast grain producer and do not need to do that) has shown how weak world food supplies are at present. Perhaps some of these Green true believers need an Irish farm and lorry strike or blockade, resulting in shortages, to awake them to reality, but it might just make them sneer harder at the unenlightened poors. A strike and blockade might happen, given how the Glasraí (they're veggies) want to essentially destroy cattle farming and the road haulage sector while FF-Fine Gael probably care more about their careers right now than farmer voter outrage. Sustainability just means the sort of high cost hobby techniques which would make food scarce and unaffordable. Making already pressed people pay for heating and travel, banning turf sales isn't enough. Irish people need to suffer, must be their thinking.

    At least the people struck back a little against the Green 'sustainable' agenda in Sri Lanka (which had wrecked the agri sector and ultimately crashing their economy):

    https://www.themorning.lk/president-says-fertiliser-policy-opposed-by-entrenched-lobbies/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,479 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Yeah I have zero faith in us dealing with it though. Look how the country goes mental over things like turf or restricting cars from somewhere, we have become too soft and wont accept anything that inconveniences even a little. The only future I foresee is more and more wars over resources, as per usual, with widespread famines here and there across the globe. Yay!



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    You do realise that Irish beef farming is relatively sustainable compared to the Netherlands. The animals here barely go outside because there isn’t enough grass to feed them.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,214 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    5 of the world top 6 by GDP are USA, China, Japan, Germany and India. Those 5 are responsible for 56% of CO2 global emissions. For 4 of them that is primarily due to coal burning electricity power plants and they have no intention of changing as for them it is a cheap energy source driving their economies. Even Germany, for long that example held up to us by Irish greens as too who we should be emulating, are back mining and buying coal from Columbia and exploring for oil and gas, so their CO2 emissions aren`t going to go lower either.

    Here our greens solutions to climate change, not happy with the damage they are doing to our economy in general, also want to cut Irish cattle herds by 30% and ruin our agriculture sector as well based on, "we will show all those others by us leading by example". The major economies could not give a toss about our "example" and are protecting their economies by all means possible.

    Irish greens and the Irish Green party in particular are like the farmer telling his neighbour that he was unsure from looking at a young male animal`s head if he would make a good bull. The neighbour told him he was looking at the wrong end of the beast.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,479 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    But Ireland is part of the EU, which is 500 million people, there are EU climate targets, that's hardly irrelevant?

    I was unaware of any plans to cull the amount of cattle, is this going to happen? Surely FF/FG wouldn't allow that to happen? I think you overestimate how much power the Greens have, I am pretty sure the herd is increasing rather than decreasing.

    Do you just think the EU or even no one should try and decrease emissions because other countries will carry on doing the same as usual?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,960 ✭✭✭Jizique


    Ireland should say that they will start on agriculture once Germany implements a sped limit on motorways and once they phase out lignite for power generation



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,479 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    this muppet posting years old Tweets from Poland, but it's all a MSM cover up don't you know!



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Barely

    When they give coverage equal to Boris etc

    They ain't covering it because they don't want people talking about the insanity of the Dutch government's climate policy. They don't want people thinking to hard.



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