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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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    #12632
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,779 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119311115#Comment_119311115

    It is but there will be an awful of little things in the grand scheme of things and they'll all fall upon the shoulders of working class people.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #12633
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Head of Ulster farming, John Brown, was on RTE radio today saying vet medicines is a NIP problem.

    EU stuff is no longer recognised in UK and UK stuff is no longer acceptable in EU. This means that whichever stuff is chosen, the products cannot go to the other market. I think he may have said EU is not allowed to be used in NI, but I may have misheard. (misherd?)

    I thought this was already sorted. Is that so?



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    #12634
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,779 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119312373#Comment_119312373

    Neale Richmond was on Oh God, What Now! this week and said that veterinary checks constituted 85% of border checks and could be easily enough removed by negotiation. Presumably, he means alignment but whatever it is, it's insane that it is not happening. It would defuse tension and make life easier for people in NI. It can only be, assuming that Richmond has his facts correct for ideological reasons.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #12635
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    SPS checks were there before Brexit, and for good reason.

    Foot and Mouth and mad cow were both imported from Britain, and there should have been a complete bio-hazard barrier for the island of Ireland as part of the Good Friday agreement. We did OK with F&M (except for a couple of incursions) but MCD was harder to repel. Infected and inappropriate animal food was to blame.

    The UK will diverge from EU standards at every opportunity - either to lower standards, or to reduce surveillance to effectively negate standards. This can only be tackled by significant market surveillance on our part, and hopefully in NI as well.

    If a hard border, either actual or effectively, is introduce, NI can say goodbye to their dairy farming, their sheep farming, and their pig business. A milk lorry going from Lakelands might enter NI but only to cross into the farms in Ireland further on, but not to collect NI milk. Sheep travel north while pigs travel south, or maybe the other way round, but both will cease to travel if SPS becomes a North South affair.

    NI matters not a jot to the Westminster circus while the clowns begin hand to hand combat to grab the main gig.



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    #12636
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,908 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    UK will not commit to EU standards on anything for ideological reasons.

    Certain irony that I'm sure they will be thinking about the US FTA that might require lighter food safety requirements but the US won't touch them as long as they dick about with NI.



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    #12637
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 26,090 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119312797#Comment_119312797

    The Brexiters in parliament will never commit to EU standards because the whole point of Brexit was to draw the UK down to US levels for the sake of profit.

    Immigrants and all that were just to whip up regular folk but the true drivers of Brexit were rich people upset about losing money due to the EUs high standards and rights.



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    #12638
    yagan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,230 ✭✭✭yagan


    Brexiters simply don't believe in standards. For them it's laissez faire.

    Britain's economic stance was war for centuries where they didn't have to negotiate but applied by force the terms of trade upon conquered nations to suit Britain's wealth.



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    #12639
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users Posts: 13,429 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119310675#Comment_119310675

    You correctly mention smaller bands and the issues they'll have touring compared to the likes of Daltrey etc.

    It gets even worse for the 'starter' bands or session musicians - those who aren't big enough to even have the concept of a mapped-out tour (and this is the majority of the industry). It used to be that you'd start out in Germany or wherever, and hope to pick up gigs on an ad hoc basis - an English bar in Vienna, a student pub in Milan, a weekend festival in Copenhagen, whatever whenever. Always available to go wherever you were asked at 24 hours notice. Close to impossible now.



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    #12640
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,446 ✭✭✭McGiver


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119313924#Comment_119313924

    It's a cultural issue, alright.

    Post-imperial syndrome. A country which was a global hegemon 100 years ago now relegated to the 2nd league. They can't keep calm and carry on (pun intended) for some reason.

    In this aspect, they're closer to Turkey and Russia (both rivals of the British Empire in 1800s) than to Continental Europe. Negotiation by force. Intimidation. Exceptionalism.



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    #12641
    storker
    Registered Users Posts: 5,670 ✭✭✭storker


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119306906#Comment_119306906

    But they have arrived "got on with Brexit". It's done. The train has reached the terminus. They've got what they wanted.



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    #12642
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,779 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119313924#Comment_119313924

    I disagree. There are Brexiters in the sense that 17.4 million people voted for Brexit and there are the likes of Gove, Johnson, Sunak et al who either fit this description or couldn't give a sh*t as long as they win or get a piece of the pie.

    I can't imagine that the voters of Sunderland or Blythe Valley want to abrogate or weaken environmental standards. Brexit was a giant package of myriad things to myriad people. Of course, they did vote for it and they knew what they were voting for.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #12643
    yagan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,230 ✭✭✭yagan


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119320784#Comment_119320784

    You couldn't have had the brexit mantra of "take back control" if the standards weren't perceived to be onerous.

    The creator of the Bendy Banana meme won a parliamentary majority to unbind Britain from brussels red tape, or standards to you and me.



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    #12644
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,779 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119320815#Comment_119320815

    Perceived to be onerous by people who couldn't cite a single rule or regulation from Brussels that they couldn't wait to be rid of.

    People here are shockingly uninformed when it comes to politics. I'd say maybe one in twenty could name a single DUP MP even though they held the balance of power in Parliament a mere few years ago.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #12645
    timetogo1
    Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭timetogo1


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119320815#Comment_119320815

    That's a good example. The bendy banana rule was made up by Boris. And he benefited from it. It's hard to counter made up rules.

    The brexiters could "perceive" whatever they wanted and vote to leave accordingly. That is a problem with Brexit (and why few leavers are happy with it). Ask 10 brexiters why they voted to leave and yould probably get 10 different answers.



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    #12646
    ambro25
    Registered Users Posts: 5,994 ✭✭✭ambro25


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119320784#Comment_119320784

    It’s not so much laissez faire, as unbridled liberalism borne from exceptionalism, and in that sense I’m rejoining yagan sentiment.

    I can’t imagine that the voters of Sunderland or Blythe Valley wanted the face-eating leopard party and policies thereof, that they’ve been voting for over the last 6 years, to eventually eat their faces.

    Well.



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    #12647
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,779 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119320858#Comment_119320858

    It's not hard, it's impossible.

    It's the gish gallop. Sticking with the bendy bananas claim, one could dig up the relevant EU and UK food regulations (Many EU regulations were strict at the UK's insistence funnily enough) the interlocutor will have no interest in them and will have dropped another dead cat on the table. And so, the process begins anew.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #12648
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,779 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119320909#Comment_119320909

    This is exactly the point I was making. They're not neoliberals, they've suffered terribly from neoliberalism and are now voting for the brakes to be taken off neoliberalism.

    My point was the scale of disaffection amongst many UK voters and the ignorance that characterizes debate as you can see in any episode of Question Time.

    Don't even start me on the least trusted media in Europe:

    image.png


    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #12649
    peter kern
    Registered Users Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭peter kern


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119320938#Comment_119320938

    this is clear most people have no idea what eu is about, all they know is they are not getting richer while in eu so they where easy to be persuaded that the eu is the problem ....

    now they will see the eu is not the problem ,they and their government is .

    ignorance is the much bigger problem



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    #12650
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,779 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119321059#Comment_119321059

    Well, literal decades of mass gaslighting by most mainstream newspapers didn't help!

    Mainstream politicians simply told them that the UK would thrive outside the EU and they believed it. A politically literate population would have asked why the Conservative party which spent years denuding the state is now blaming a foreign entity. I think people here are seeing that they were sold a pup but of course, it's too late.

    If there's a single upside, it'll be the destruction of the treacherous Tory party which has made itself nothing more than an instrument of hostile foreign interests.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #12651
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,313 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119321059#Comment_119321059

    I'd argue you are a tad to optimistic if you think they will stop blaming EU and instead look at their own government and themselves... First of all they may blame their own government "for not being "tough enough" and standing up to EU (as it's still EU's fault after all, EU punishing UK etc. for daring to leave and all that crap). Secondly you assume that they would actually start looking for facts rather than keep buying what ever the next snake oil seller will offer instead (Immigrants, EU, cabal to punish the UK, global recession, wokeism etc.). And third and final, you assume that they will actually go out and vote differently rather than simply note vote this time (lower and lower number of voters "as they are all the same", "no one listens to us" etc.).



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    #12652
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,779 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119321153#Comment_119321153

    I agree with Peter. It seems to happening. Johnson's calamitous cornucopia of concupiscent scandals among others is an indicator of this. People think Brexit is done. So did the Tory party until they realised that they have no ideas for actually governing and so have resurrected the protocol row. The next election will be dominated by the cost of living. When times are poor, you simply don't have time to indulge in the sort of decadent drivel peddled by the Murdoch press. It doesn't matter if Thor is a woman when you're choosing between food and heating.

    For anyone in the EU, it doesn't really matter who gets blamed. The UK is out and not getting back in any time soon.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #12653
    peter kern
    Registered Users Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭peter kern


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119321153#Comment_119321153

    i agree , i dont see it happening as it is always easier to blame the others, but a few people maybe 15 to 20 percent of the brexiter will come around. but die hards no way.



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    #12654
    54and56
    Registered Users Posts: 7,665 ✭✭✭54and56


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119321546#Comment_119321546

    Diehards (ERG types) are classic examples of the Sunk Cost Fallacy, they are simply too invested in Brexit to be able to re-evaluate and amend their position. They'd rather go full steam ahead at the ice berg than change course.

    If the UK re-elects those same gammons having had time to assess and literally experience the effects of Brexit on the country then they will entirely deserve whatever the long term consequences turn out to be. There was some mitigation in 2016 and even in terms of BloJo's 80 seat majority as they were still endeavouring to "get Brexit done" and hoping (despite plenty of evidence to the contrary) that Brexit might actually deliver the unicorn promises being made to them but in the next election there will be absolutely zero mitigation.



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    #12655
    peter kern
    Registered Users Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭peter kern


    when liz truss will change her mind on brexit again than we now what the majority wants ....



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    #12656
    yagan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,230 ✭✭✭yagan


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119322057#Comment_119322057

    Rejoining the EU is definitely off the table but some kind of customs arrangement (my bet is on Britain aligning with NI) will eventually be arrived at, but selling it as better than EU membership will be the challenge. The average brexiter can feel they achieved their base goal of ending free movement (even if non EU immigration continues to rise) so they can boast of that.

    It was said by brexiters that they were happy to join the ECC when it was more a customs union, but rejected the EU so a walk back isn't as big a deal for street level brexiters as long as the Freedom of Movement suspension is hoisted as a victory.



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    #12657
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 26,090 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119322898#Comment_119322898

    They were lying about the EEC though. The "I was happy with a trade bloc but not the politics" was the same as Norway+. It was only to fool swing voters.



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    #12658
    paul71
    Registered Users Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭paul71


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119322898#Comment_119322898

    From an EU perspective it may well be a case of then and now though. The sky has not fallen in for the EU, and the generous offer of Customs arrangement without freedom of movement may not suit many EU members anymore.

    Even if the UK came asking for for a customs union now, Poland, Slovakia, Lithuania, Portugal et all may very well say "not without Freedom of movement, now trot along old friend until you have something to offer".



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    #12659
    yagan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,230 ✭✭✭yagan


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330163#Comment_119330163

    A customs union isn't single market access. The customs arrangement the EU has with Turkey only covers a few sectors that suit both parties.



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    #12660
    storker
    Registered Users Posts: 5,670 ✭✭✭storker


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330163#Comment_119330163

    I'd say it too. The four freedoms are not a menu from which a country, especially one that has been as hostile and disruptive as the UK, can just pick what it fancies.



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    #12661
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,779 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119331790#Comment_119331790

    That might work though. The customs union could be limited as both parties desire. Of course it would mean no innovative trade deals with Australia but the resolution of the NI question would be a serious win for Labour if they go for this.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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