Parking and traffic in Phoenix Park

GandhiwasfromBallyfermot · 14-07-2022 8:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119335073#Comment_119335073

Its really not rocket science to drive 30km/h. If you feel you can't drive 30km/h safely then you should just hand in your driving license.

magicbastarder · 14-07-2022 8:37am

people aren't used to driving at that speed. if there's a string of cars in front of you doing 30 in heavyish traffic, you have no problem holding 30.

Hurrache · 14-07-2022 9:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119335073#Comment_119335073

You don't need to brake at all to maintain or control your speed at that limit.

VonLuck · 14-07-2022 11:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119335081#Comment_119335081

I didn't say it was complicated. I said that it's a sign of an incorrect speed limit if you even have to think about it. A correctly designed road should not require you to really think about what speed you're doing. It should naturally feel right.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119335313#Comment_119335313

Well technically you shouldn't need to brake at all at any speed, but my point is that your average driver will naturally be inclined to go over the 30km/h limit, realise they're going to fast and then slow down. And I say average driver because most cars I've seen on Chesterfield Avenue have been exceeding the 30km/h limit.

magicbastarder · 14-07-2022 11:40am

a bit of chicken and egg going on with the claim that the speed limit is wrong, because of the design? you could also argue using that logic that the speed limit is correct, but the design is wrong?

it's scope creep for the debate, but modern cars make it 'easier' to go fast without realising; in my father in law's car, 100km/h feels like probably 60 would in mine.

maybe we should corrugate the road surface along the length of chesterfield avenue. it'd slow motorists down, but would be horrendous for noise.

Weepsie · 14-07-2022 11:42am

You sound like you shouldn't be driving to be honest.

People claim they can't drive at 30kmph but have zero issue holding 120 when it suits or keeping it in urban traffic.

It's bullshit and just acknowledges that the standard of driving of many is well below where it should be

Flinty997 · 14-07-2022 11:44am

Speed limits are assigned for different reasons

Road engineering studies.
Environment/Conditions
Sin rules/behavior change.
Political

Curiously most (but not all people) will drive(or cycle) at a reasonable speed due to self preservation. But if you set a speed for any of the above reasons this goes out of the window.

Trouble with maintaining a lower than expect speed, can be that is there is a disconnect between the location and speed expectation. People have habit of driving too fast, or not within posted limits.

This video touches many of these point. Its bit longwinded but might be of interest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6gu265N-1Y&ab_channel=IdealMedia

fatbhoy · 14-07-2022 11:44am

This thread is hilarious. Can't drive at a constant 30KM/H? LOL.

Flinty997 · 14-07-2022 11:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119335924#Comment_119335924

We are seeking behavioral change. Then we should look at what does that.

But a dead straight wide road with good sight lines and pedestrians well separated doesn't scream 30k to most people. As someone said visually narrowing the road with wands does help.

Flinty997 · 14-07-2022 11:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119335934#Comment_119335934

That's overly simplistic.

A squeaky wheel isn't always broken.

Larbre34 · 14-07-2022 12:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119335968#Comment_119335968

100% this.

The 30 limit for the rest of the Park is appropriate, but having it on Chesterfield Avenue makes a mockery of appropriate limits.

The default urban limit of 50 km/h is entirely correct and consistent for Chesterfield Avenue.

If they do make the 30 limit permanent, a) it won't be observed, as we see now and b) if they do ticket people for exceeding 30, more than a few will take it all the way to a Judge, who will be asking the OPW and the prosecuting Garda (if he turns up), why the hell is this long, wide, straight, well demarcated road 30 km/h??!!

Flinty997 · 14-07-2022 1:37pm

But they don't want you to see as a road. But a Park.

VonLuck · 14-07-2022 1:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119335934#Comment_119335934

It sounds like you don't drive at all to be honest! Also you have no understanding of road design. Maybe you should educate yourself and check out DMURS:

"Research has found that:

• The speed at which drivers travel is principally influenced by the characteristics of the street environment

• If the design of a street creates the perception that it is safe to travel at higher speeds drivers will do so, even if this conflicts with the posted speed limit.

By eliminating risk and promoting free-flowing conditions, drivers feel more inclined to drive at higher speeds. Furthermore if speed limits are perceived as not being appropriate to the environment, it can undermine the speed limit system as a whole. The extent to which speeding in urban areas is a problem has been identified in successive surveys carried out by the Road Safety Authority, with 3 out of 5 drivers on urban streets driving in excess of the posted speed limit."

magicbastarder · 14-07-2022 1:43pm

everyone knows that road layout etc. will affect what speed drivers consider safe; but i don't buy the argument that speed limits thus should be set at what drivers in general consider to be 'safe'. largely because many drivers only consider their own safety in that subconcious calculation.

the argument above is that we should set laws based on how much people obey them, which is a cart before horse argument. road design should follow on from setting the correct speed limit, not lead that decision.

we don't ease laws against shoplifting simply because the current laws have failed to prevent it.

VonLuck · 14-07-2022 2:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119336518#Comment_119336518

I don't think everyone understands that. Certainly not here!

And I don't think your shoplifting analogy is really an accurate comparison. It's more akin to leaving your goods unattended out on the street and being surprised that they've been stolen. The laws are still there, but they'll do little to help you if you haven't taken the necessary steps to prevent it happening in the first place.

Weepsie · 14-07-2022 2:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119336492#Comment_119336492

I am a **** driver. Have a licence but I know I'm terrible, so don't drive unless I desperately have to.

Your point just reinforces that it's bad driving. Drivers love to blame road design and infrastructure for their own bad driving and/or law breaking.

I've been in the park plenty of times since the rules came in, I've seen more than enough drivers sticking to the 30 to say your claim it's difficult is nonsense

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119336238#Comment_119336238

Or they'll wonder why you're wasting their time and start handing out heftier fines.

Flinty997 · 14-07-2022 2:48pm

Probably a better example is cyclist breaking red lights.

People assume its dangerous because it is for cars. But in fact a cyclist isn't going to run a red light unless its clear. So very few accidents happen because cyclists break the lights. So if there are few accidents is it actually dangerous. You can argue its a rule and its about a system and if bicycle breaks the lights it encourages cars to break the lights. Or at the very least causes conflict between road users. So perhaps its best to adhere to the red light as a cyclist.

But in Paris they made turn left on a red a yield for a cyclist not a stop. So there's different ways of thinking of these problems.

So speed limits are only one way to encourage better driving. Its not the only way or even the most effective.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/road-design-calgary-psychology-of-speed-1.4850684

Larbre34 · 14-07-2022 3:09pm

Any mention of DMURS attracts the derision it deserves.

Nothing has been a greater creator of modal conflict and risks where none existed prior, as this bloody document.

Weepsie · 14-07-2022 3:53pm

at 50 kmph, it was always a bit tricky to get across the road in the park if you weren't near one of the few crossings. at 30kmph, I can pretty much cross anywhere.

It's 3-4 mins of time. That's all the difference. People lose that time and more in traffic due to arseholes runnings ambers and blocking up junctions. Sort all that out, and sort out the **** show that is Castleknock and drivers cutting up pedestrians, cyclists and all sort in the bus lane and you'd be less delayed than this speed limit

VonLuck · 14-07-2022 4:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119336914#Comment_119336914

Drivers are certainly breaking the rules, I've never denied that, but the rules in the first place aren't appropriate. If a large proportion of people are not following the rules then there certainly is something wrong. No point in saying that there's a 30km/h speed limit if people aren't going to follow it.

I've also been in the park plenty of times and can say the complete opposite! The times where people obey the rules tends to be when one person is sticking to 30km/h and then the cars behind them eventually catch up and don't overtake.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337108#Comment_119337108

You can't really argue with a survey of speeds now can you?

Seth Brundle · 14-07-2022 4:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119328342#Comment_119328342

Using the safety aspect of a motorway to prove a point that driving at speed can be safer isn't really a valid point unless you were to compare the safety stats of a motorway against the safety stats of a slower road which is also one-way and has no pedestrians, animals, slow traffic, no non-grade separated junctions, etc.

As we don't have these comparative roads, it is not a fair comparison to make.

Flinty997 · 14-07-2022 4:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337361#Comment_119337361

What crossings?

Weepsie · 14-07-2022 4:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337487#Comment_119337487

There are none really, but at the roundabouts, people tend to give way a bit more to cross. so not crossings, but common crossing points.

Flinty997 · 14-07-2022 4:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337414#Comment_119337414

The sweeping over simplistic generalizing was solely about speed and physics.

That there are range of other facts was entirely my point.

Flinty997 · 14-07-2022 4:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337495#Comment_119337495

If there are no crossing its kind of irrelevant where you cross.

Crossing at a roundabout is bad idea. Not only are drivers occupied by other cars, if they stop on the roundabout or leaving it, the odds of being rear ended are high.

Basically its hard to cross when its busy, because there are no crossings. The idea you should make it easier to jaywalk or dash between traffic seems a dubious safety approach. if pedestrian crossing is an issue. Why the flip are there no crossings. Makes no sense.

Flinty997 · 14-07-2022 4:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337397#Comment_119337397

It makes a difference if its just a road vs a road in a park.

Then its not simply about speed.

14-07-2022 4:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337561#Comment_119337561

Basically its hard to cross when its busy, because there are no crossings. The idea you should make it easier to jaywalk or dash between traffic seems a dubious safety approach. if pedestrian crossing is an issue. Why the flip are there no crossings. Makes no sense.

Its.A.Park

Flinty997 · 14-07-2022 4:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337638#Comment_119337638

I'm not sure what "its a park" means

Visually? Its a park full of plastic wands. Not really very park like its it.

Policy not to have crossing? They have one here https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3514742,-6.3026141,3a,75y,86.3h,96.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQd-954Tyuc0Pyepg6fw-KQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Its a park so its not full of traffic? Its full of traffic at weekends precisely because its a huge park and full of tourist attractions and leisure activities. That before you get into its bang center of a load of infrastructure.

Its park doesn't mean wildlife sanctuary.

Weepsie · 14-07-2022 5:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337712#Comment_119337712

That's not a crossing though in any legal sense though/ And that's near the roundabouts and it's not on chesterfield. That doesn't get you from one side to the other in the park.

The park has a significant amount of people who access it and use it exclusively on foot.

If pedestrian crossings were put in, you'd ideally have them every 500metres if not closer. That would be at least 8 in the park but should probably be more. That would mean cars stopping / starting which people would get pissy about too and find a reason to not stop.

Any type of speed should be discourage in the park. We're not that long removed from a toddler being killed a few hundred metres from chesterfield avenue. That's an extreme case, but I know of several other crashes. My own father was nearly killed by a speeding driver on it years ago and has had to deal with the injuries and such ever since. Anecdotal as that may be, people being "inconvenienced" for 3-4 mins is no reason to revert back to old speeds.

Flinty997 · 14-07-2022 5:52pm

It of looks like a duck is a duck. Its a raised ramp (speed control) at the point where people cross due to openings either side. Its a crossing in all sense of the word.

What toddler?

I don't see how we can go from we have/need no crossing to we need 8 crossings. How about we have one at the zoo at least, the visitor center, where its busy with people crossing.

Parking and traffic in Phoenix Park

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