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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Fair enough. Do you think LGBT people like me who hold that position on trans- people in sport are by default transphobic?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Can you define bigger? A female prop being heavier or taller than an male international scrumhalf is not all that relevant.

    There is absolutely no reason to expect the performance gap to decrease significantly from here (at least in sports that have taken female participation relatively seriously such as say athletics and tennis) and it would be a ludicrous endpoint of this whole thing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,687 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    But that's not a direct answer to my question; it's pretty evasive and vague, actually.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,687 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So why did you quote it and try (and fail) to respond. Bizarre.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,687 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Seemed applicable at the time. You say it's not, so I'm not going to jump in the middle of it further.

    I think it's a complicated issue. For other example, there are Black Americans who are racist toward Black Americans. Groups become cultured to even hate themselves in some extremes. So you could have a transphobic trans person, presumably. I'm not alleging you're trans exclusionary. It seems plausible trans persons could hold the views they should be segregated, and this would be colloquially known as the 'transphobic' position.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I think if you do not consider a person who has medically transitioned to be of the gender they identify, and that they should be banned from competing in the gender category they identify with at elite level(we are talking about sports hence the 'medically transition' qualifier) then that is a transphobic position.

    It is a position based on the premise that a trans man is not a man - oh, wait - no one objects to transmen competing at elite level. Only trans women.

    At non-elite level it's pretty uncontroversial to say that not recognising a person as being of the gender they identify is a transphobic position.

    It's actually the official position of Boards.ie.

    And what other reason would there be to ban a particular category of women apart from failure to recognise them as women?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Because scrum halfs never get tackled by props?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It is a position based on the premise that a trans man is not a man...

    It's not a premise. It's just fact; a biological fact.

    Trans men are not biological males and trans women are not biological females. If trans men were men, they wouldn't have the prefix "trans-" to begin with.

    And deep down. And I mean really deep down, you know this.

    You can call LGBT people like me "transphobic" for saying this, but you're whistling against reality. It doesn't matter how many times you say it, nor how many times you silence people who disagree with you, what you are stating cannot - CANNOT - be true. Not in this universe, not in any universe.

    No amount of labelling and dismissing "the Other" can eliminate that fact, however painful it may be to accept.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,489 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    I think Professor Winston is an expert.

    Do you have qualifications that match professor Winston's? Your post count here doesn't count.




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I think if you do not consider a person who has medically transitioned to be of the gender they identify, and that they should be banned from competing in the gender category they identify with at elite level(we are talking about sports hence the 'medically transition' qualifier) then that is a transphobic position.

    There are plenty of people who would consider your "medically transitioned" qualifier to be itself transphobic.

    It is a position based on the premise that a trans man is not a man - oh, wait - no one objects to transmen competing at elite level. Only trans women.

    Some do, I don't. Because my issue is not with the existence or ability of trans people in general to play sports at an elite level. This seems to run somewhat counter to the idea that it is inherent transphobia no?

    Because scrum halfs never get tackled by props?

    Sure (though rarely, the wee scamps) but there have always been women taller and heavier than e.g. Peter Stringer. Less so ones with the same muscle mass and bone density for that size. Its not the greatest example due to the pro vs amateur dynamic also, but we both know that not a single female international would be able to play at male international level so claiming "some are bigger" is a bit disingenuous.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    And round and round we go.

    The deliberate mixing and matching of biological sex and gender when it's being made perfectly clear that they are not the same thing.

    Since your seem to have re-set you talking points back to index card #1 I'll disengage from discussing this further with you.

    I have answered your questions honestly and to the best of my abilities.

    My position is clear. A trans woman is a woman, a trans man is a man.

    My identity as a woman is not threatened by either of these statements.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    A trans woman is a woman, a trans man is a man.

    No, they aren't.

    And you know it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Indeed. Which is why I specified within the context of elite sports - as medically transitioned is required. That is why the Transgender man mentioned in the OP was competing against women, including a trans woman. Those are not my rules. They are, however, the rules elite trans athletes are currently expected to observe.

    I placed no qualifies on non-elite athletes participating at the gender they identify.


    Interesting you can predict the future of women's (incl trans) abilities with such accuracy. You must make a killing at the bookies.

    I would never place a limit on what women athletes will be able to do in the future following decades of the kind of investment put into male athletes we could all be very surprise. Wasn't that long ago it was believed no woman could run a marathon.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    And expert in fertility.

    Not in pediatric endocrinology.

    Even with your post count you should be able to understand the different between the two.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    As long as sport is differentiated by biological sex, the views of subjective gender will always, always take second place.

    As Sebastian Coe has said, "I've always made it clear: if we ever get pushed into a corner to that point where we're making a judgement about fairness or inclusion, I will always fall down on the side of fairness".

    I hate Coe, but he's right.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,222 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue



    Your post is a good example of a self fulfilling argument.

    Unfortunately when it comes to sports the transition process doesn't equalise performance.

    Abstract

    Males enjoy physical performance advantages over females within competitive sport. The sex-based segregation into male and female sporting categories does not account for transgender persons who experience incongruence between their biological sex and their experienced gender identity. Accordingly, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) determined criteria by which a transgender woman may be eligible to compete in the female category, requiring total serum testosterone levels to be suppressed below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to and during competition. Whether this regulation removes the male performance advantage has not been scrutinized. Here, we review how differences in biological characteristics between biological males and females affect sporting performance and assess whether evidence exists to support the assumption that testosterone suppression in transgender women removes the male performance advantage and thus delivers fair and safe competition. We report that the performance gap between males and females becomes significant at puberty and often amounts to 10–50% depending on sport. The performance gap is more pronounced in sporting activities relying on muscle mass and explosive strength, particularly in the upper body. Longitudinal studies examining the effects of testosterone suppression on muscle mass and strength in transgender women consistently show very modest changes, where the loss of lean body mass, muscle area and strength typically amounts to approximately 5% after 12 months of treatment. Thus, the muscular advantage enjoyed by transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed. Sports organizations should consider this evidence when reassessing current policies regarding participation of transgender women in the female category of sport.

    Transgender Women in the Female Category of Sport: Perspectives on Testosterone Suppression and Performance Advantage | SpringerLink


    You bring up Transmen which is a good point. Where are the transmen who are competing at high level?

    Live your life and identify how you wish, I'm all for it. When it comes to competing in sport though there are other things that come into play.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,489 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    My identity as a woman is not threatened by either of these statements.

    You identity as a gender non-conforming butch dyke lesbian.

    What is your personal tribalism? Is it with normal woman? You know the one's who wear make-up, short skirts, busty blonds, sexy page 3 models, red lipsticks, pouty lips. Surely you don't identify with all that.

    Do you have a problem with normal women and as a result don't identify with their concern's in terms of transgender issues. Because that's what it looks like to me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,113 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    normal woman? You know the one's who wear make-up, short skirts, busty blonds, sexy page 3 models, red lipsticks, pouty lips. 

    🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    'Normal'


    Not 'Normal'


    Well, there you have it. Defination of woman in 2 easy lessons.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Longitudinal studies examining the effects of testosterone suppression on muscle mass and strength in transgender women consistently show very modest changes, where the loss of lean body mass, muscle area and strength typically amounts to approximately 5% after 12 months of treatment.

    Thus, the muscular advantage enjoyed by transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed.

    That's remarkable, as I didn't believe the % would be as low as that. And that's without even considering the structural advantages that come with male bodies that have advanced through puberty.

    No wonder sporting bodies are channelling their efforts toward "open categories".

    How anyone can justify the inclusion of trans women in women's competitions, in full light of this evidence, is beyond me.

    At that stage, it's no longer about science and fairness and equality; it's about ideology and the naked pursuit of dogma.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,113 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    One of the most bizarre descriptions I've ever read on this site. A "normal woman" basically being reduced to a hypersexualised stereotype. I know loads of normal women. None of them are like this bizarre caricature. It's also of course telling that it paints anyone outside of that bizarre caricature in as "abnormal".

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    One of these women is a transgender athlete.

    hint: it's not the muscular one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    It works both ways. You found an example where a trans athlete is smaller. Here's one where the trans athlete is bigger.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,687 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Did the sport separate the womens division by size



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,687 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    So if it’s not divided by size then what’s the problem? Giant women aren’t allowed to compete against smaller women?



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The problem is that both large and small biological males are competing against biological women in women's competitions.

    Showing the larger biological males just so happens to demonstrate how ridiculous this entire debate is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Its very edifying to see people deny reality just to stay true to their mental ideology. Driving off a cliff rather than admitting they went off course.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Not as far as I'm aware, no.

    I was replying to Bannasidhe's post showing a muscular woman in, what I believe to be, an attempt to try to show that transwomen (who after all are biological men who identify as female) don't have a physical advantage over biological women. I'm sure Bannasidhe will correct me if that wasn't the intention.

    If the muscular female in Bannasidhe's post is indeed a biological female, then this is an outlier as biological female athletes tend to be smaller and less muscular than biological male athletes. And there are outliers everywhere. Brittney Griner who is 6 feet 9 inches tall is a good 1 foot 3 inches taller than I am (male), but it would be wrong to infer that women are taller than men due to that example.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    And here we have two cis women of vastly different sizes competing against each other.

    Below is Verity Smith.

    Who played rugby (union and league) for 26 years as a non-medically transitioned Trans Man - therefore in the photo below Smith was 100% biologically female (although GCer's like to use this photo and claim Smith had transitioned.) In 2018, Smith was tackled by a much smaller player and his spine was crushed.


    Verity Smith is now confined to a wheelchair, has medically transitioned, and plays wheelchair rugby as a man.


    We are expected to believe this 'safe' as both women are biologically female, the difference in their respective weights is 56 kg:


    But this woman is dangerous because she has too much testosterone:


    Meanwhile no concerns about safe size differences in men's sport (on this photo significant height difference makes high tackles technically far more likely to happen, which are dangerous, but no one is suggesting setting height limits):


    The point is bodies come in all shapes and sizes - and so do athletes.

    There is pearl clutching that trans women are 'too big' to compete against cis women but nothing about the vast differences in size between cis women at elite level. That, apparently is ok. Unless the women in question fails the 'gender verification tests'.....

    Men don't have their gender verified, neither are there safety concern or fairness concerns when 159 kg Toulon prop Walid Maamry competes against the 82 kg Toulouse Half-Back Antoine Dupont.

    Only women's bodies are policed.

    The criteria that is meant to 'protect' women from 'bigger' trans women is meaningless as there are already vast size differences between current biologically female players.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,727 ✭✭✭Enduro



    "At non-elite level it's pretty uncontroversial to say that not recognising a person as being of the gender they identify is a transphobic position."

    I call BS on that. Your attiudde seems to be that elite level athletes are entitled to a level of fairness that non-elite athletes are not entitled to. I can say with certainty that in the sports I participate in that would be regarded as a digusting attiitude, including by the elites in the sport. EVERYONE competing in sports should be afforded the same level of fairness, irrespective of the level they are competing at. Nono elite's participating in the female sex category are just as entitled to level of fairness of females competing at elite level

    Thankfully an increasing number of sports governing bodies are taking steps to prioritiese fairness in sex cateogories, whilst still tying to be as inclusive as possible.

    Of course even if it wasn't the case you'd be buidling up a world of problems by creating another categorisation of Elite and non-elite. How would you sort out that for events like the (hugely prestigous and finacially rewarding) events like the London marathon where everyone is ranked together (irrespective of their classification as elite or non-elite, profesional or amatuer, full time or hobbyist)?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,687 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    It seems to be a problem with the large ones if you are singling out the biggos



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    What are you on about?

    There already is a vast distinction between elite and non-elite.

    I didn't draw the distinction. I merely do not deny it exists.

    Neither do I draw up the rules as decided by sporting bodies - whether I agree with them or not my posts reflect their existence, therefore I will add qualifications when discussing athletes who are bound by their sporting authorities rules.

    It does seem ridiculous to me that a transwoman can play for Leinster but not Ireland. But those are the rules as set by World Rugby, and my posts reflect that situation.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It does seem ridiculous to me that a transwoman can play for Leinster but not Ireland. But those are the rules as set by World Rugby, and my posts reflect that situation.

    I agree, they should be consistent and ban her from both.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,493 ✭✭✭J.O. Farmer


    Based on that logic then there should be no male or female categories and perhaps only weight categories in sports such as combat sports.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Their strategy is to bog people down with intricate details of anatomy, weight, size, genetics, testosterone %'s and so on - to level out the entire playing field.

    Because that helps to distract everyone from the bigger picture - namely, that only biological women should compete in a biological women's competition. The clue is in the name.

    That no biological male should compete, regardless of size or testosterone, because they are taking the place of a biological woman in the competition; a woman who would have trained for years to secure that position in the competition.

    It's a fundamental injustice, and it really is as simple as the above. No scientific papers are needed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭greyday


    No point in arguing this much longer, most sports where physical ability is an advantage are going to ban transwomen competing against biological women, they will have their own category or can compete against biological men, the argument is over, trans women will be excluded from women spaces as are biological males, the world will go on and trans people will realise they can compete in any sport they like in a category suitable for them and OTHERS.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,687 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    “OTHERS”

    Its a bit on the **** nose don’t you think, to put it in all caps?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Well fundamentally his point is right. It seems the debate has been had, and it's game over for trans activists.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,727 ✭✭✭Enduro


    It's good to hear that you think that the distinction in fairness levels is ridiculous. Hopefully you'll join me in thinking any rules that create that situation are crap. Rules are not scripture set in stone, so I would hope (and assume) that in rugby they will change in time, hopefully ASAP.

    Thankfully the sports I participate in seem to be much more egalitarian than Rugby. And, as noted, recent moves from more egalitarian governing bodies such as Triathalon make no distinctioon between "elties" and non-elites.

    I love rugby as a sport, but having different degress of fairness between their definitions of elite and non-elite is fankly digusting, and disgraceful to non-eltite rugby players.



  • Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭greyday


    My point being that fairness has to include OTHERS which the trans movement seem to have neglected as they went after what they wanted with no respect to what OTHERS wanted, others namely being biological women competing in sports.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    You've gone to an awful lot of effort to point out nothing of note really.

    Biological males have more advantages over biological females than just size. There's strength, speed, bone density etc.

    No matter what way you look at it, a transwoman is biologically a man. They can identify as whatever they like but that won't change the fact that they are biologically a man. And men are typically bigger, faster and stronger than biological women.

    It's plainly not right that biological men should be allowed to take part in female sports. In sports where size, strenght, speed etc. are key to the sport, this gives biological males a clear advantage. One only has to look at the record books to see this. If every male athlete in the world decided to enter female sports, how many medals do you think the female athletes will win?

    Yes, people get injured in rugby. But put the Irish Women's rugby team up against the men's team. Which team do you think would suffer the most injuries in that match?

    For the record, are you arguing that men aren't, in general, bigger, stronger and faster than biological women?

    Are you arguing that men don't have an unfair advantage when they take part in female sports?

    Men don't have their gender identified for competitions because the men's competitions are normally the pinacle of sport due to their physical advantages over female athletes. Women's bodies are policed to ensure that biological females compete with other biological females, and not males who have a very unfair advantage. Women competing in the men's category isn't really an issue because in the vast vast majority of sports, that wouldn't be unfair to the men.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,687 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,687 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭greyday


    Of course you don't, I never expected you would.

    The transphobia slur to stop people talking about the unrealistic desire for Transwomen to compete against Biological women is no longer having the impact it once had, when one is tarred now with that slur, people look into what they have said to deserve such insults and have found people like JK Rowling who spoke common sense when others were frightened to voice their concerns, its no longer a slur as it has been used way way out of context to instill fear in people to prevent them speaking out, The UK women Cyclists and the USA women swimmers are only the beginning of the push back, people are no longer afraid as we saw with the lifeline debate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Do you believe biological women are so incapable of beating transwomen in any sports that the only way to ensure fairness is to ban all transwomen from competing against cis women?

    I have more faith in the abilities of biologically female athletes tbh.

    I think that is the crux of it. A core belief that a biological female will never be able to beat a biological male - even when that biological male has been taking testosterone reducing drugs, and oestrogen, for a number of years. I simply do not share that belief. I find it sexist and dismissive for women's abilities.

    And given the lack of trans women winning at major events in the 40+ years since Richards won the right to compete as a woman the stats certainly don't point to any significant advantage favouring transwomen. Richards actually lost at Wimbledon in the doubles. One of her winning opponents was Navratilova.

    Much is made of Lia Thomas - who has won no major event, set no records. But we are expected to worry that she will beat Ledecky who has 6 individual Olympic gold medals, 14 world Championship golds, a career total so far of 42 medals and setting 14 world records.

    But, according to some, Thomas' 'advantage' of having gone through male puberty would overcome Ledecky's skill, talent, training, ability.

    The stats tell a very different story. They show that even in the Varsity race Thomas won in previous years, based on her time, she would have been lucky to come 2nd. And she is going to beat Ledecky? I don't think so.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,687 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Did I use transphobia as a slur?

    Maybe focus on what I write and not what you 'expect' me to write. If you would like to have a constructive conversation I'm happy for you to try and explain how it is Othering cis women.



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