2022 DCM Novice Thread

AntrimGlens · 11-07-2022 11:17am

So I've week 4 done and it's going not too bad. Managed to complete all my training and runs whilst in Greece, had to start my long 15mile run at 5am last Sunday and it was still 26 degrees at that time of the morning. I did my mid week training on a treadmill and if I never have to set foot on one again I'll be happy.

Yesterdays long run was 12 miles and I took to the hills for it as my hamstring isn't fully recovered and thought the softer terrain might be better for it. But I have a couple of Questions on this.

My pace for the 12 miles averaged 10.15 min miles, but there was 380m elevation within this so it took me just over two hours for this run and it had my heart rate in the higher zones for a good part of it.

Is there any benefit to running at this pace or heart rate if my planned marathon pace is 8.15-8.30 min miles? Should I ditch the running in the hills and just run on the roads and run at 9.00-9.15 min miles instead, making sure my heart rate is all within zones 1/2?

Or does time on my feet outweight the slowness of the pace?

Thanks

MisterJinx · 11-07-2022 11:45am

@Laineyfrecks I wasn't really looking at the pace tbh, just went on feel and was prob 10 or so seconds above what I think will be marathon pace. It was slower than HM pace by 10 seconds per km. I think I'll dial it in over the weeks and get a better idea then with a few more PMP sessions under the belt.

LSR done today. Fairly hot here and had to throw in a few walk breaks just to make it bearable! Plus a couple of trips on the forest trail parts but no harm done thankfully.

l3m0n5 · 11-07-2022 11:50am

First 2 weeks training are done.

Week 1 didn't go as planned as I was on-call and only got 26k done. Didn't get to do the long run that week but I had done it the Saturday before as I knew there was a possibility I wouldn't make the long run. Next week I'm due to be on-call is the August Bank Hol weekend hopefully I'll get the long run in but it might be the Bank Hol Monday.

Week 2

04.07 Mon 5,6 km 36:14:00 6:31/km

05.07 Tue 6,5 km 40:26:00 6:13/km

06.07 Wed

07.07 Thu 8,0 km 44:57:00 5:36/km

08.07 Fri 6,0 km 39:20:00 6:33/km

09.07 Sat 16,1 km 01:47:39 6:41/km

- Did a total of 42K this week. Couldn't get the PMP run done Wednesday so had to push it to Thursday, also did a run late Friday and it screwed me for the 10 Mile on Saturday morning as I struggled towards the end, the heat didn't help either. For the Wednesday runs I'll probably have to move some to the Tuesday as the eldest has football matches on Wednesday and doing the run on a Thursday just puts the long run under pressure.

Won't be doing the 10k race this week so another 10 mile this week.

Laineyfrecks · 11-07-2022 4:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119320711#Comment_119320711

Well done & great to see you managed the training whilst on holidays, it's not easy fitting it in.

No harm in doing a hill run every few weeks, it's good for strengthening the legs. However in this case, right now it is the worst thing you can do. When doing hill running the quads are worked on the downhills and the hamstrings on the uphills. Therefore the hills are bad for you with your hamstring issue. I would suggest maybe running on grass or just a fairly even ground.

Lazare · 11-07-2022 10:49pm

Slowing down, the absolute vital importance of it and why you should not let ego get in the way of maximising your potential.

It's totally normal and expected at the start of this journey you're on to raise questions and have doubts about the idea of slowing right down.

It happens every year, and eventually it sinks in, usually by the time you start seeing the results, and the leaps in your fitness.

Happened with me and everyone else in 2017, and every other graduate. You yourself will be on here next year and the year after advocating it.

The reasons are actually really simple, and are twofold.

In order to run a marathon, or to excel at the distance you need to maximise your aerobic ability and fitness. Aerobic fitness and improvement in it is what drives gains.

We all have an aerobic threshold, not to be confused with anaerobic threshold, the more commonly discussed one associated with Tempo running. You breach your aerobic threshold much earlier at a much easier effort/pace.

Once you breach it, you're still running aerobically but no longer fully 100% aerobic. Your body begins to switch to anaerobic metabolism, ie, no longer fully strengthening that vital aerobic system.

You'll still get gains, but you're no longer maximising those gains.

The reason it's twofold is because, we need to put a massive amount of aerobic work in between now and the big day, again to maximise potential.

Running at this effort level, while it's reaping you such amazing fitness benefits, it has minimal impact on the body and requires pretty much no recovery other than after very long runs.

Your aerobic threshold will be slower than you think. You're most likely running too fast.

There is a good test you can do while running to give you a good idea of it.

Start your run and breath exclusively through your nose. Gradually increase the effort and pace until you're forced to use your mouth to breath. Check your pace.

That's roughly your aerobic threshold. Stay below it. Regularly check it in different conditions. Other than specific workouts, always stay below it. 80% + of your running should be below it.

Ego can sometimes get in our way but try hard to shut it out.

A person who can run a 20 min 5k will take about 28 or 29 minutes to cover that distance running fully aerobically.

So don't worry if it feels too slow. It should. As your aerobic fitness improves, so will your pace at that effort level.

Now to go practise what I preach. :)

Turkish1 · 12-07-2022 1:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119324123#Comment_119324123

Good to hear the tip re: breathing through nose. It feels like I am crawling around the place at the moment but I am certainly breathing through my mouth and not nose. Will try take it back further to see where that level is - it really is a mentally challenging thing to do (particularly in the good weather with other runners passing, I might be too competitive for my own good ☺️) Hoping to pick the brains here on a couple things -

(i) with the boards programme, there is basically no running at any pace faster than PMP (excluding the race series) whereas alot of programmes that I can see online have quite a few tempo runs, fartlek runs etc.. It this purely as the board plan is catering for novices or is the general consensus here that the tempo and fartlek types runs aren't the right approach?

(ii) I see there is a 3/4 marathon on about 3 weeks in advance of the marathon - was seriously contemplating running that, partially for race experience (as I have effectively none at this stage) and also mentally for myself as a real marker as to what may or may not be possible come marathon day as the taper will begin a week or so later. Any thoughts on this?

Dublin334 · 12-07-2022 2:11pm

Hi All

So first 2 weeks of the Boards Plan completed. It was a bit difficult last week as I was on holidays and the terrain was hilly (ranged between 848 - 932m), but I got all the runs completed.

For LSR (10 miles) my pace was 9.40 min/mile or 6:03 min/km and my average HR was 128 which my Garmin is telling me is in the Aerobic Range (120-136). Most of my Easy runs are around similar pace and HR so based on the earlier post from @Lazare is that the correct range I should be aiming for on the Easy Runs?

For the PMP run I kept it at approx 9 min/mile or 5.34 min/km pace but this pushed HR average to 134. Not sure yet if this will be my PMP but would like to target a sub 4 hour marathon pace.

I've signed up for the Fingal 10km this Sunday so will try to push for sub 50 mins. I used to be able to beat 50 mins comfortably but I haven't run anywhere near that pace since I started the marathon training, so not sure how its going to feel.

68 lost souls · 12-07-2022 4:59pm

Week 2 done and dusted. All to plan, PMP a little high at the moment I think . 38km total running 1 strength session and 3 swims (7km total).

Monday - Swim 2400m

Tuesday - 5km eaacy 6:35/km pace 142bpm. Weights session in PM, 40 minutes

Wednesday - Morning swim 2400M afternoon 8k run as 2 km warmup 5km PMP (5:05/km 171BPM) a little fast as tree cover was throwing out the GPS and HR a little high (Max is 203) 1km cool down

Thursday - 5km recovery 5:55/km 146bpm

Friday - 2200M swim

Saturday - 16km 6:35/km 144BPM. Slightly hilly with 200m of climbing

Sunday - 3.2km 6:20/km 135BPM

Murph_D · 12-07-2022 8:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119324123#Comment_119324123

Great post. 👍👍

Laineyfrecks · 12-07-2022 9:55pm

Brilliant post @Lazare exactly what I've been trying to say but way better😉

I would also like to reiterate that you really should be running to current fitness, whilst it is good to have a goal time for your marathon in mind you also have to be realistic. Running too fast with the increase in mileage each week, as explained above will only lead to either an injury or burnout before the actual day. Be smart about your training & you will have a good marathon.

For anyone looking to join the strava group here's the link -

https://www.strava.com/clubs/dcm22novices

12-07-2022 9:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119326529#Comment_119326529

Just one thing I'd say about the 3/4 marathon, its great for a final long run but be careful that you don't end up racing it.

Its so tempting when you're in the moment but you could end up leaving it all out there and effectively leaving nothing for the

marathon itself which is the main event.

Also people have times in their mind that they would love to do for the marathon and follow pace groups thinking this is the group to follow as I'm chasing sub 4 and the pace group are doing it 5% slower so it will be fine. In reality they are not in sub 4 shape and just fooling themselves and that 5% slower is actually hotter than their realistic marathon pace but just about doable for a 3/4 marathon. Another way to burn out for the main event.

Lambay island · 13-07-2022 12:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119326529#Comment_119326529

In terms of the Boards plan. It's simply a tried and trusted plan that has got many hundreds of folk successfully over the line for the first time. There are many ways to skin a cat and there are of course benefits to certain aspects of other plans.

Yeh, I 2nd what Tara Little Scalp has said here about the 3/4 marathon. This is a question that has come up in past versions of this thread. It's very close to the target race and we wouldn't be doing our mentor jobs if we told you to kick on and race it. The boards plan has 18 miles as the last LSR that week. It could certainly be swapped out for that and ran as an easy run. It could be used a dress rehearsal where you actually get into all the gear you plan to wear for DCM, including gel carrier etc. It's integral you don't run it too hard and potentially undo the hardwork and risk the main target.

Laineyfrecks · 13-07-2022 8:37am

For anyone looking to join the Strava group can you please PM me with your name to match it up to your boards one😊

Pinoy adventure · 13-07-2022 8:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330064#Comment_119330064

Is there a strava group ?

Turkish1 · 13-07-2022 9:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119329741#Comment_119329741

Thanks (both) for the responses - I might steer clear of the 3/4 as I don't think I would have the discipline to do a LSR pacing and not race it which might be detrimental overall.

Laineyfrecks · 13-07-2022 9:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119333564#Comment_119333564

Yes the link is in a post from earlier.

Laineyfrecks · 13-07-2022 10:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119326692#Comment_119326692

Well done completing week 2 especially being on holidays!

Those paces seem fine to me, just remember to keep the easy runs easy.

Very best of luck on Sunday, give it a really good go, nothing beats the buzz of a race. Make sure you let us know how you get on😊

Adiaga 2 · 14-07-2022 7:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119333713#Comment_119333713

I'm probably in a minority of 1 but I don't use Strava. I use the Nike running app. I'm reluctant to make a switch as my entire running history is on that app. Does anyone have any experience of using 2 tracking apps like these concurrently? A quick google tells me it is possible. Be interested to know if anyone has done it and had any major issues.

68 lost souls · 14-07-2022 9:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119334956#Comment_119334956

Are you using Android or iPhone? There are plenty of tools that link the two so you track in Nike apps normal and it syncs to Strava. This is how I would argue most people use strava anyway, (record on a gps watch and sync garmin connect to strava or similar)

Adiaga 2 · 14-07-2022 11:04am

Cheers! I didn't know that. I'm on iphone. Will download Strava and look into syncing options. If you have any specific suggestions let me know if you get the chance. Thanks again!

onrail · 14-07-2022 11:41am

Folks, is anyone using the Pfitzinger (advanced marathoning) plan?

I had been loosely following the structure, albeit with a few less weekly Kms because of a slightly low my starting point.

Just starting to look over the next 10 weeks in the schedule and it seems gruelling. Maybe a little too much for a first timer looking to run around 3:10-3:15?

Secondly, if I revert back to the boards plan, what pace should LSR runs be, say in relation to planned marathon pace?

68 lost souls · 14-07-2022 12:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119335719#Comment_119335719

I haven't used this myself but something like this site will allow you to link them http://nike.vinz.xyz/#/strava-auth

Treviso · 14-07-2022 7:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119335930#Comment_119335930

I used the 55 mile P&D advanced plan when I was a novice in 2019. Was able to run a 3.26 with it for my first marathon. If you are looking to run 3.10-3.15, then you probably need the more "gruelling" runs on that plan. If you do keep following it, just make sure you are running the MLR runs correctly - lots of people run them as LSRs but they are different - pace progressively gets faster as the run goes on (MP+20% -> MP+15% -> MP+10%).

Let me know if you do have questions on that particular plan.

Murph_D · 14-07-2022 9:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119335930#Comment_119335930

Normally I would say P&D is overkill for most debuts, and I might even say that a runner like Treviso is the exception that proves the rule - but from the 5k and 10k times you posted earlier it looks like you DO have the kind of performances and experience under the belt that say you might be able to handle a programme like this one. The thing to bear in mind is that you probably have not yet developed the endurance that will translate those shorter race times into a comparable marathon so you will need to be super careful about adjusting your training to get the adaptations the book talks about for marathon running. Read it carefully, and come back with questions. Treviso makes good points, and many a P&D runner has come a cropper by not being rigorous about what it asks you to do. But it’s a great method - tried and trusted, but not for everybody. Good luck with whatever you decide.

onrail · 15-07-2022 2:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119338211#Comment_119338211

Thanks a million - I was just getting ready to hit the MLR at a slow pace!

One burning question about this plan and others is how much wriggle room is there on dates for the suggested races in the plan. I'm finding it pretty difficult to find in two suitable races 7 and 5 weeks out from raceday.

Conversely, would shoving in a fast 10k sometime in the next few weeks be a disaster if not scheduled? With other commitments, I might fit one in around the 1st or second week in August.

Treviso · 15-07-2022 6:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119341355#Comment_119341355

Plan can be flexible enough - out of the 3 prescribed races, I only ended up racing the first 5k race (the following day's long run was torture!). I did time trials for the other 2, so dont worry if you cannot get races to line up. It's all about effort levels for those.

With regards the 10k, it could potentially replace a midweek LT run but you have to ask yourself the question if it's worth it. You're training for your first marathon, you said you previously struggle with injuries, do you really want to run this risk? Once you get over the marathon in one piece, you'll have plenty of time to do the shorter stuff. Bet you'll easily beat your existing PBs as well off this training block

Magellanic · 15-07-2022 6:44pm

Better late than never on last weeks update but wanted to get it on here for the record.

Sunday: 6.5km easy @ 5:30 pace (km)

Mon: Cross (cycle)

Wed: 10.5km Sprint Repeats @ 5:07 average pace (km)

Thurs: 6km easy @ 5:34 pace (km)

Saturday: 16km LSR @ 5:14 pace (km)

Sunday morning I unfortunately woke up feeling awful and tested positive for Covid that evening. This week has since been a write-off and I have had to drop out of the half marathon I've been training for (was on tomorrow in Kerry).

Very demoralised at losing the week and missing the race as I was going to use this as a realistic baseline for PMP. Hoping to recover by early next week and get back at it.

Any thoughts on a good 10 Mile to target in near future? I think covid may cause me to lose some fitness which I need to regain before HM.

68 lost souls · 16-07-2022 8:05pm

Best of luck to those of you racing the Fingal 10km tomorrow

Laineyfrecks · 16-07-2022 10:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119346700#Comment_119346700

Very best of luck to everyone racing, give it socks😊

The Royal Scam · 17-07-2022 12:08pm

Long long time lurker here but have spoken to one or two boardsies I also know as humans and they highly recommend the vibe and advice in this thread.
I particularly remember following when Rainbow Kirby and Raycun had the reins and it was great, all the little nuggets that you reach for in your sub conscious when the mind games start on difficult runs. I am looking forward to this year's journey and best of luck to all and laineyfrecks too.
Was away on holidays in France for first 2 weeks of my plan but still managed to make a good go even with 33 degrees heat so my runs back home already feel the benefit for pushing myself in that heat. This will be my 5th marathon in over 13yrs but only the first one I have put a planner on the wall for. All others have not been to a plan, just long and short runs and listening to my body for 6 mths.
Good luck all especially to the 10k racers today.
Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)
Quite a few but the standouts were 4:05 DCM in 2012, 1:50 for the Great North Run in 2013 and 50:09 for a Great Ireland Run in 2015
Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? (No problem if you do)
Just to take water but will stop doing it over the next few weeks. I struggle with keeping myself slow sometimes so push too hard and then stop for 10-15 secs and then feel I will run slower after this break.
How much training do you currently do ? I generally would have an OK level of fitness considering I am late forties. I like to walk hills, and do some cycling also at least once a week. Between 30 to 50k. I play football between Sep and May every year but feel I will wait until Nov to play this year. I work on the road a lot and cover about 80k driving all over Ireland in a high pressure job but figure need to change that mindset and focus on my long term health now as my career is stable.
What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time? I have come so close to my dream of sub 4. Have got very close before with 4:05 and 4:13. I feel I have it in me.
How many days a week can you train? 5 days and following HHN2 or a hybrid of it.
What is your biggest worry/fear/doubt (if you have any!) in signing up?
I am feeling positive for now. Need to concentrate of diet and sleep as they have always been my achilles heel.
Why are you running this marathon. I love to run, I get such a buzz after long runs and would love to get sub 4 and finally not have it in my head as a target.

2022 DCM Novice Thread

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