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NZ Tour 2022 - Māori June 29th, NZ July 2nd, NZ July 9th, Māori July 12th, NZ July 16th, KO 8.05am

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    cant see lowry or frawley being in the team if everyone possible is fit. the other two might have a better chance but id still think theyd be outside the 23. current back row options are doing two well, hansen might still be ahead of balacoune in the pecking order and farrell is a big fan of conway, could easily see RB being third choice for 14 if everyone is available



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    I’m confused. Two weeks ago you said this:

    ”I think people are being very generous. We got completely blitzed in the first half and NZ took their foot off the pedal thereafter, because they were comfortable. Seriously, this should be a reality check for us. Since the France game in February, it's been 4 very worrying performances in a row (5 counting the Mãori game). Our scrum and lineout are an absolute mess, we have one top end halfback who is 37 and injury prone and we have no depth at loosehead. We have no issue making yards between the halfway line and 22, yet when we get close to the line we struggle to make inches. I don't think we're anywhere near clinical enough. We had more territory and possession and yet we were outscored 6 tries to 3.

    This was not a vintage NZ team. On paper, I'd argue the gap between our players is as small as it's ever been. And yet we were beaten comprehensively. That should set off alarm bells. I think we're much further off the top 3 than we thought.”

    So which is it? Are we vastly overrated after a pretty poor 6Ns and way off the top 3? Or have we been continuously improving for 18 months including a pretty good 6Ns and are now hitting our peak? It’s so hard to keep up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,605 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Could well be right of course. I hope Farrell will keep an element of competition in the team, and not just settle on a 23



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Are we peaking too early? Who knows. I often think that’s a bit of a narrative anyway. We didn’t peak a year too early in 2014 ahead of 2015. We didn’t peak a year too early in 2010 ahead of 2011. We didn’t peak a year too early in 2006 ahead of 2007. In the first and third examples there we arguably peaked in the 6Ns that year, which at the time would have been seen as perfect timing.

    I also think people like to lay the groundwork for narratives. It happened to Leinster when they selected their squad to go to SA this season. We got a lot of the whole “are they running the risk of going into the knock outs of Europe undercooked”.

    Ultimately nobody knows what peak is until after it’s gone. And teams can remain at their peak for varying periods and suffer dips for varying reasons. There isn’t some standard, set your watch to it timeline for peaking in sport.

    One of the things I think the coaches are looking to do at the moment is build on the teams ability to manage themselves through situations. Face into big pressure games and big pressure situations, facing teams that can pressure us in various ways too, so that we can learn how to manage that and learn how to adapt our game to suit. Building that experience and that confidence takes time. If we can do that and keep playing in a similar way to the last several months then there should be no reason that we can’t continue to develop and improve. And then remain at our peak for longer too.

    There are a lot of moving parts to it all though. People like to boil things down into bite sized chunks and sound bites, but there’s more going on than just “play rugby good”.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Has he ever really settled on a 23? Sheehan has come in ahead of Herring. We’ve seen guys like Treadwell and McCarthy leap frog Baird. Doris came in for POM and now POM has come in for Conan. VDF got dropped for Connors, but VDF then came back in. JGP overtook Murray. Lowe was in and then out and then back in again. Stockdale was tried at FB and replaced by Larmour and then by Keenan. Hansen has come in and it still isn’t clear whether he is ahead of Conway or not. Larmour, Earls and Aki have all been in and out of the 23 shirt.

    We’ve had plenty of movement in and out of the 23 and wider squad. But at the same time we need to settle on a 23, at least in the main, to build some continuity and momentum heading into next year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,877 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    I agree. There is definitely scope for improvement with Baloucoune coming in at 14 and potentially Coombes at 20.

    Im all aboard with Lowry at 15... in some games but im also well and truly converted to Keenan at 15 v Big Guns

    Sexton and Furlong out of the XV = Defeat against NZ, France, SA, Aus and Eng

    This tour has been a success in many ways but 10, 1, & 3 are massive unresolved issues which would cripple the team.

    EDIT: I should add Doak into the mix. I think he is destined for the big time and could see him at 21. for the 6N



  • Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭Itxa


    So pumped for this game tomorrow morning. Biggest in Irish rugby history. I can see Smith and Savea ripping into us but if we keep them playing rugby in front of us we can wear them down. If we can keep our heads and impose some good rugby on them we have a chance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    You forgot all the outhalves coming and going behind Sexton.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,329 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Competition for the 23 is up to the players, not the coach.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,605 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Well, the coach has to pick the players. Murray getting picked ahead of better options would be example A of not facilitating that



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    You realise that Murray being inferior is your opinion and not a fact, right?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,605 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Nah, he's not better than the Ulster or Connacht SHs, nor Casey for that matter, and that's been the case for sometime.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Opinion. Not fact. Don’t fall into the trap of thinking that you’re some oracle of truth and objectivity. You’re just an internet poster, the same as the rest of us.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,605 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Sure, with a set of eyes like the rest of us. Who can see the evidence on the pitch, like the rest of us.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    And form opinions like the rest of us. Claiming that you know best is a sure fire way to prove that you don’t.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,765 ✭✭✭Shehal


    The issue with moving on Forster is finding the cash to pay him and his staff off and then bringing in and financing a brand new staff when we are just coming out of covid when cash is tight and the RWC only being a year away.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Did NZRU do that mega deal recently for some crazy sum?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,329 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    A few thoughts on winners and losers from the Tour. Obviously the full list of winners is massive so this is an edited version.

    Winners;

    Sheehan - recovered from a ropey first test to be very good in the second and sensational in the third. Could well be the first choice come November.

    Treadwell - limited time in the tests but looked very good in everything he did and put a bit of daylight between himself and the other locks.

    Coombes & Timoney - impressed in both Maori games. Coombes could well claim the 20 jersey in November.

    POM - in and out of the team under Farrell but very much in now

    Hansen - nailed down the right wing IMO.

    Frawley - thrown in at the deep end, he did OK under the circumstances in the first Maori game and looked much better in the second.

    Michael Bent - nuff said.


    Losers;

    Baird - he's had a disrupted season but two second half appearances against the Maori is not how he would have seen this going

    Prendergast - harsh maybe but didn't make a case in the same way Coombes or Timoney did.

    Conan - Will struggle to keep the 20 jersey, let alone reclaim the 8

    H Byrne, Hume - the poor baxtards

    Aki - stay with me here. Henshaw and Ringrose were the first choice pairing, Aki was great from the bench in the second test and was very good in the third but... I doubt there's a Monday morning video review planned but a guy missing six tackles in one game would not be looking forward to it.

    Larmour - given his form for Leinster and his display in the second Maori game, he'd have hoped to be in the 23 jersey yesterday. Doesn't look like Farrell is a fan.

    Lowry - again, maybe harsh but just didn't make an impression

    Post edited by Former Former Former on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Harsh on Aki I think.

    I'm a huge Ringrose fan, but I though the directness Aki brought was a huge factor in winning the 2nd test. I thought he was excellent as well in the 3rd test. He brings a physicality to our backline that we just don't have otherwise.

    Can't argue with the others.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,329 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Aki played very, very well, don't get me wrong - just different players wanted different things from this tour. Aki's objective was to break up the Henshaw-Ringrose partnership and I don't think (personally) that he's done so.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,638 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I'd put Carberry in the loser section. He did very little to close the gap on Sexton. In fact, Farrell left Sexton on for 70 minutes on Saturday.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,915 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    I wouldn't have him in the loser section at all.

    After this tour he is firmly in the "sextons successor" box seat and his closest rival is a guy who doesn't even play 10 at his club.

    The gap between carbery and all other pretenders has never been wider imo



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,638 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I doubt that HB has been cast off! He has a poor injury profile and who knows, that could change. Carberry is set at the moment but, he's not getting much time behind mt Sexton!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    I'm still ambivalent on Larmour. He has something no other player has, in his step and acceleration. But I just don't see him making either of the key passes (Hansen->Lowe, Lowe->Keenan) that beat a 3 on 2 for Keenan's try yesterday. His boot and aerial game might be a notch below what we need at international level. At 25, time is still on his side to some degree. But there's more than one area that needs improvement.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,529 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    He's probably got about 3 years before his primary assets start to deteriorate and he's firmly down the pecking order as it is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭TRC10


    I disagree. I think Frawley's performance in the Mãori games, along with Carbery's poor displays in tests 1 and 2 will have raised questions in Farrell's mind. If Frawley starts getting minutes at 10 for Leinster next season and Carbery doesn't find form for Munster, I think he could be in trouble come November



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,638 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I agree with this take. I think Larmour doesn't have the passing game that the others have. He's also suspect under the high ball.

    But, he's unreal with ball in hand. Very few lads with his ability to leave defenders tackling shadows. I don't see him developing to the kind of player that Farrell wants. Also, his instinct is to attack from anywhere, that is not what Farrell is looking for. Larmour doesn't have the kicking ability of Lowe and I think Lowes kicking is huge in clearing our lines and demoralizing the opposition. I don't think any of our wings can match Lowe for his kicking.

    I do think that Larmour is ideally suited for the 23 jersey. So, I wouldn't write him off. Anything can happen. Depth wise we're stocked for wingers. Conway, Hansen, Balacoune and Larmour.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,605 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    You can't overlook how well that back 3 worked as a unit too. I'd say Farrell will be loathe to give that up. Keenan's try was a perfect embodiment of that.

    I know NZ produce work class wings every other week, but I wonder if they'd have any regrets at missing out on Lowe now.

    Post edited by AbusesToilets on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Not sure about that at this point. I’ve never been happier to see Murray come onto the field than to close out that final test. Is there another 9 you’d say has the experience and the ability to confidently see that out? Maybe, but Murray is the kind of player any coach would love to have on the bench in a moment like that.



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  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,529 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    I doubt it. They could use Aki more than Lowe IMO.

    Imagine if we had Will Jordan or Caleb Clarke to call on.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I hate to say it as someone who harboured high hopes for Harry Byrne, but there is no way they can make any plans around him now. His ability doesn't come into even here, you just can't factor around someone with his injury profile. Way too risky to give a spot in a RWC squad to someone who you can't rely on, even if he was pulling up trees on the pitch, which he isn't.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yeah, agreed on this. When times were tense in the final moments of the last two tests, I was glad to see Murray arriving.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,915 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    theres a very big "IF" in that post.

    we've seen nothing from leinster to suggest that Frawleys minutes at 10 will be increased, other than injury enforced. They went to south africa back in april with a scratch side and still didnt play frawley at 10. So currently hes 4th choice out half in Leinster and no where even close to starting a European knock out game.

    compare that to carbery who currently has 35 irish caps and is munsters european starter.

    coming into this tour questions were asked about who sextons successor would be, and in my opinion this tours has increased carberys position as being that successor. to put it simply, frawley is coming from way at the back of the field to try to oust carbery. One great and one workmanlike performance against the maoris isnt going to suddenly see him jump the 22 shirt, especially seeing as hes going to get very little opportunity at 10 in blue before the RWC warm up games next july.

    in my opinion Frawley has leap frogged burns and carty and is on an equal footing with HB currently in the list of pretenders. but the gap between carbery and those pretenders has increased, and thus why i wouldn't consider him a "loser" from this tour, even if his contribution was a total of 80 minutes over the 5 games.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭TRC10


    we've seen nothing from leinster to suggest that Frawleys minutes at 10 will be increased

    Signing Charlie Ngatai.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,915 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Ngatai is a utility back.

    Leinster and ireland will be moth balling Henshaw

    Leinster just offered Prendergast and Tector (both out halfs) academy spots

    Leinster already have Sexton and the two Byrnes as the incumbent 10's

    Theres very limited minutes to go around. I believe if leinster were seriously looking at Fralwey as sextons successor they would have given him time at 10 on the SA tour. There is as much possibility at the moment that Frawley will never see the irish 10 ever again, as there is in him being in the 22 shirt at the RWC 23.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,329 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    There is as much possibility at the moment that Frawley will never see the irish 10 ever again, as there is in him being in the 22 shirt at the RWC 23.

    I'd say the former is far more likely than the latter tbh.

    Like, two things need to happen - Frawley needs game time for Leinster at 10 and Farrell has to lose faith in Carbery. I don't see either happening soon tbh.

    Frawley's best shot is to get back into Ireland camp in November (I believe he will) and impress Farrell to the point where he says, I don't care what Leinster are doing, this is the guy.

    I agree that Ngatai arriving is unrelated to who plays 10. We've lost ROL, COB, A Byrne and Hawkshaw for next season so regardless, we need cover in the three quarters.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,915 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Agreed, and the last point is not improbable either.

    however im thinking the change of coaching structure at munster with mike prendergast coming in as attacks coach is going to be the fillip carbery needs to re-spark his career. Munster looked patternless under larkham and often their attack fell apart after 4 or 5 phases. Prendergast has had racing humming over teh last few seasons, even allowing for russells unpredictability.

    Frawleys best bet for leinster this year is to occupy the 22 shirt and cover both 10 and 12 from the bench, and this could be a real possibility for bigger games as a Frawley / Ngatai 22 / 23 reserve covers 10 to 15 quite adequately.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Alma Blue Table


    Aki - stay with me here. Henshaw and Ringrose were the first choice pairing, Aki was great from the bench in the second test and was very good in the third but... I doubt there's a Monday morning video review planned but a guy missing six tackles in one game would not be looking forward to it.


    I can't remember any of the Aki misses but we had plenty of 'good' misses during the game where someone would shoot up, not really complete the tackle, but totally stymie NZ in midfield in the process. Bealham had one, and Henshaw is a bit of a master at it so he was completing his with one notable tackle on Barrett. I think it was clear enough Aki was behind Henshaw and Ringrose anyway but he's plenty of credit from this series imo.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Leinster already have Sexton and the two Byrnes as the incumbent 10's

    You can forget about Harry Byrne. He's never going to be a reliable option for anyone. That sounds harsh but Leinster can't afford to continually invest in him.

    If Leinster want to keep challenging for European Cups post-Sexton, Ross Byrne isn't the answer. And I'd be amazed if Leo and Lancaster aren't aware of this. Frawley is a vastly superior rugby player and has the potential to be a much better 10, and I think that was part of the thought process behind bringing Ngatai in, to almost replace Frawley in the 12 depth chart. And btw, they did start him at 10 in South Africa.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,877 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    Sexton form is imperious at the moment. I'm without any doubt that he's playing the best rugby of his career. He should win World Player of the Year this year. (or Beirne or vdF or Dupont!)

    He himself has been part of many a capitulation over the years culminating in the RWC. I'd have ditched him from his leading role after that and gone all in on Carbery... injuries, JvG yadda yadda yadda

    Carbery has played some important roles in the wins v NZ over the years:

    Win v NZ 16' - Sexton 59' (8 out of 10) replaced by Carbery (7 out of 10)

    Loss v NZ 16' - Sexton 18' replaced by Jackson

    Win v NZ 18' - Sexton 79' (8 out of 10) replaced by Carbery

    Loss v NZ 19' - Sexton 63' replaced by Carbery

    Win v NZ 21' - Sexton 59' (8 out of 10) replaced by Carbery (7 out of 10)

    Loss v NZ 22' 1st Test - Sexton 31' replaced by Carbery (6 out of 10)

    Win v NZ 22' 2nd Test - Sexton 73' (9) replaced by Carbery

    Win v NZ 22' 3rd Test - Sexton 76' (9) replaced by Carbery

    Carberry can play a vital role for Ireland in the future. Fingers crossed 1. he stays fit and 2. Predergast helps him finds his mojo

    It's an extraordinary turnaround by Sexton and Ireland in the last 7-8 months. Can they keep it going for another 12-15 months?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    A successful tour and the positivity it generates tends to lift all boats, but I wasn't encouraged by Carbery on this tour. The interception was a huge moment, and he had a few positive involvements after that and showed some nice interplay.

    What concerned me was that even in the second test, when Sexton seemed to be struggling a little bit for fitness late in the game, there seemed to be a reluctance from Farrell to trust him too early. Same on Saturday.

    I'm really hopeful he gets some confidence, and playing under Prendergast might help him hopefully, but I'd still be extremely worried about any meaningful game if we had to rely on Carbery.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,877 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    Beirne's performances in the last two tests raises that Qs of Beirne v Henderson in the second row.

    Ryan is nailed on at No.5.

    But v SA at RWC would Beirne be dropped or even moved to 6?

    If the team was been picked tomorrow to play SA I think Henderson would be on the bench. It will be intriguing to see how it plays out in November.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Dunno if I agree with this entirely, could equally see as Henderson v Ryan for the No 5 shirt. There has to be a role for Beirne when he's at his best.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,877 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    Farrell always picks Ryan is what i mean by "nailed on". He's either picked Beirne or Henderson as the No.4



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yeah, I suppose that's true.

    I thought Ryan had a magnificent game on Saturday.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,877 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    Yep and prob the best I've seen Ryan play since.....2018?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,313 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    It's absolutely up to Henderson to play his way back into the starting team.

    Right now , he's on the bench as there's no way you can talk about dropping Beirne or O'Mahony at 5 or 6.

    The same applies to Kelleher , Sheehan has the shirt right now and he'll have to win it back from him

    It's a fantastic place for Ireland to be in to have multiple genuinely top level players across multiple positions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,503 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    Need a quality 3rd option for hooker. Hearing wobbly dart was a concern. And being user critical, the decision to break off the back of the maul when he scored the try was possibly not the right thing. Obviously user critical, he looks a solid player, good in the loose.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    i didnt think id say this given his season with munster, but scannell might

    according to The Breakdown that wasnt the case

    he played well in the 2nd and 3rd tests definitely but i think aki-henshaw still lacks the balance of henshaw-ringrose, having said that aki's passing game has come on massively



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