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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    I always point a gimlet eye at such matters, however when I see angles like "what They are not telling you", "mainstream media", "real science", scientific sounding arguments that will sway the less clued in(and let's face it the thick) and so forth, well...

    And I'm no Green party supporter. If I had my way I'd frog march them out of the Dail, line them up against the wall and spray them with concentrated human sewage. And then set fire to their hair. A collection of mostly well meaning utter morons.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Those personal decisions both make a small practical difference - but they also signal that these things are significant to society and that we are demanding real change in real ways. Saying i will carry on burning Turf because it will make no difference is simply signaling that I don't really care about my part in the problem. The simple reality is that the average Irish citizen contributes between 4-10x the amount of emissions than the average citizen in the developing world and so the difference we make here have a disproportionate effect on the world as a whole. Burning turf is really just sticking two fingers up to the world and saying just **** off and die peasants.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    My far bigger concern is environmental change and the resulting narrowing of biodiversity and extinctions because of it. Yes climate changes locally and globally certainly play a part here, but other human driven processes are far more responsible. And this cannot be denied, even slightly. Ever since modern humans left Africa it's been in play and long before CO2 spikes. You can actually trace our early wanderings around this planet by the extinctions that followed after we show up somewhere. There isn't a single area of this planet where this did not occur. And rapidly. The last large land mass that we showed up in was New Zealand in the middle of 12th century, so very recent in human history terms. By the time Europeans "discovered" the place the "deeply connected to the land" Maori had already driven nearly half of New Zealand's verterbrates to extinction, and then Europeans got in on the act.

    This narrowing of biodiversity and deforestation and local extinctions are happening today on a near global scale, not seen since other mass extinctions of the distant past that required things like continental sized vulcanism or massive space rocks slamming into the place.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Grand, but how are you going to stop the "average citizen in the developing world" from following the developed world down the same path and more rapidly given the population of same is growing at a far more rapid rate? The single biggest thing anyone can do for the enivironment and CO2 and all that is to have one fewer child. Which is what is happening "naturally" in the developed world. In the developing world it's the opposite.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Nonsense. It makes no difference whatsoever to the climate of the planet. It is pollution on an enormous industrial scale that is responsible. Going after Peg etc living in their 1950's cottage who depend on turf to stay warm and heat thier water is not going to save the planet.

    They need to grow a pair, make an actual difference instead of.leaving to a South American farmer to do.



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  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I can't find the article about the farmer suing the oil companies, but I did find this:

    By ExxonMobil’s reckoning, climate change is not as much of a threat as anybody thinks it is, and in some cases isn’t real,” he added. “Because they’re able to convince large swaths of people in Connecticut and across the country, we didn’t adopt those renewable sources of energy, and we didn’t move to a carbon-free economy, as quickly as we should have



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,569 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande



    Unlikely, the next election will see a further slide for FF towards independents or FG. The people "who get up early in the morning" i.e. the commuter belt and get nailed by the costs of living are going to be the king makers. The Greens are likely to hold their own, the costs of their legislation are mostly borne by constituencies that don't vote for them. If you look at the last council elections results you can see they are strongest in urban areas which have the most bicycle lanes. The last time they got wiped out was for supporting an unpopular party, memories are short and voters forgave them.

    The drum beat via the news media in incessant. It is loaded with opinion pieces from Universities, NGOs, the wind & solar generator lobby. That alone will serve to reinforce the Green party vote. The education system has been completely compromised by the efforts of An Taisce,, there is a ready made constituency of first time voters, while they may have low participation rates could be enough to swing tight races given our PR system if election.

    They is also Fine Gael to consider, they are aligned with the European People’s Party bloc in the EU. This means they are tied in with Germany (CDU/CSU) and its policies. Therefore we are going to get more of the EU made us do it excuse in the papers. The bind for the Irish government is to keep the MNCs happy with the tax treaties which means having to compromise on the EUs Green new deal, fronted by Ursula Von der Leyen. It means for Irish politicians taking a stand that is opposite what is lobbied for and decided at top EU levels is going against their interests. There is also the ECB (Cristine Lagarde) and IMF (Kristalina Georgieva) all of whom support the EUs Green New Deal, the implication being there is money to be had. Nothing shows the Irish states complete loss of sovereignty like the current situation does.

    As regards the EU as an entity, it is a top down anti-democratic structure. It has interfered several times when member countries electorates have rejected them , notably in Ireland (Lisbon Treaty, Nice Treaty), the Lisbon treaty was originally meant to be an EU constitution which was rejected by voters in France and the Netherlands before being repackaged. The Irish establishment can be bribed to fall into line when it comes to the EU. Ireland is a net contributor to EU revenue.

    EU agrees new cars must be emissions-free after 2035

    After over 16 hours of negotiations, the EU's environment ministers struck a deal on proposed laws to combat climate change. From 2035 onward, only new cars and vans with zero CO2 emissions will be permitted.

    . . . .

    Another aspect of the agreement will see a €59 billion ($62 billion) Social Climate Fund established to shield low-income citizens from any increase in energy costs caused by carbon policy.

    All EU member countries will be able to submit proposals to the European Commission for how this money can be spent to help people, such as by making homes more energy efficient in winter or subsidizing new, zero-emissions transport.

    "The transition to renewable energy will bring the bills down, but many people will need some support in getting there," Timmermans added.


    The claim that random generated energy will bring the bills down is not supported by experience to date. As already outlined in this thread in Ireland are walking into an electricity generation crisis in the country driven by the falloff in output from Corrib and the increased demand on the grid driven by the proposals to force a growing population from consuming primary energy to secondary source (Electricity) for heating and transport and everything else.

    The idea of a miracle green hydrogen economy is also flawed due to energy return on energy invested (EROI or EROEI) being negative. i.e. if you have to put more energy in that you get in return, its not worth it at any mass scale.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Those developing world citizens will never have as bad a carbon footprint as ourselves as they will jump straight to clean energy solutions such as solar and low energy technologies. They can achieve both much better living standards with minimal increases in carbon footprint.

    Population growth has stopped everywhere except Africa (unfortunately Africa represents around half of the populated planets area) and gone into decline in many places.

    But here's the crunch - I think the trajectory we are on means we are already extinct and there is nothing we can do about it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,569 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Back in 2014, Greenpeace installed solar panels


    However by the end of 2021 - Solar power station at Bihar’s ‘first solar village’ is now a makeshift cattle shed

    The solar panels are now defunct for two reasons, cost and reliability.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,279 ✭✭✭paddyisreal


    Jaysus will ye relax with the scaremongering..... As for the carbon foot print of developing countries do you think Nigeria with a predicted population of 300 million within 10 years are all going to be driving EVs and using solar? Laughable stuff, lagos for example has some of oldest car stock on earth and you think these are all going to be replaced with EVs? You environmental warriors really live in fantasy make believe world.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    If you want a proper straw get some stainless steel ones.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    The link posted is from a dubious website called the daily caller. When a website won’t allow you to reject all tracking cookies then there a sham site.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Maybe in the very rural areas, but I have no such confidence in the urban areas. Never mind feeding them all and what that costs.

    As for us going extinct I seriously doubt it. At one time around 70,000 years back modern humans were squeezed into a genetic bottleneck of between 20,000 and 40,000 people(depending on who you read) and we came back from that. We could end up squeezed again alright, but so long as 10,000 of us stick around we'll come back from that too. For humans go go extinct the planet itself would have to become near uninhabitable for all large mammals.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,569 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    As you can't read it, people in poor countries are looking for cheap AND reliable power. If this can be done with solar panels then great, once that village in the story got access to coal powered electricity, the solar panels became an expensive toy.

    Heart of Darkness - Why electricity is a security issue

    Hill’s focus is on hope and, most importantly how lack of access to cheap and reliable electricity destroys it. Without power, there is no hope for the people in the countryside, who flock to the cities in search of a better life. Without power the countryside becomes denuded of its population.


    And worse, without power and without hope, some will be tempted by crime and terrorism. As Hill says in his title, energy is a security issue.


    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Once various tipping points are exceeded the trajectory for global carbon and global temps can go way beyond what man has ever lived through in his history. We are talking mass extinction events level and its highly likely that the societal stresses which that unleashes will have seen us off way before the environment does. Climate has already played a significant roll in many of the major conflicts that have broken out in the last few decades and we are only just at the start of the changes that are anticipated. A few major famines like the ones we are about to head into will cause ripple effects in political stability which are impossible to predict the outcome of.


    A sobering thought for everyone to contemplate - almost half of the carbon man has emitted since the start of the industrial revolution has been sequestered in the relatively cool oceans. As ocean temps start to rise we will see much of that carbon come back out of solution - we have only seen a fraction of the damage we have already caused because there is a centuries lag timescale between what we do today and what it causes in the future. That carbon hidden in the deep oceans will come back to bite us.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    And the elephant in the room regarding EV's and other such measures in the consumer field is, well, consumerism. EV's are dubious as far as manufacturing goes and cost more than ICE to produce. However they're not nearly so polluting in use and should last significantly longer in service. However and it's a big however, if we keep plugging the current rampant consumerist model where we buy and replace cars every few years then not that much will change. Yes they'll end up in the secondhand market, but they won't last that long there either, ten or fifteen years on average. Until we seriously increase the length of that currently very short tube from manufacture to landfill we're only delaying the process IMHO. And it's not as if we can't build stuff to last. Look at airliners. Under constant stresses, upgraded and refitted over time with many lasting many decades. There are a few 40+ year old Boeing 737's flying passengers today.

    And no recycling in its current form is a red herring in most cases. Metals can be recycled, but plastics are a whole other matter. The vast majority of plastics if they are recycled can only be recycled once and in a lesser form. That's if they're recycled. The vast majority aren't. Once they were transported on dirty ships to China to be mostly burned, or thrown in landfill. When they closed their doors, places like India and Malaysia took over doing the same thing. By 2015 we had produced over eight billion metric tonnes of virgin plastics, of which 9% had been recycled, 12% burnt(much of it in the open air, the rest ended up in holes in the ground. Biodegradeable plastics? They require heat and moisture, so pretty much industrial processes to break down, and you have to make the stuff in the first place.

    And just look at the amount of this crap we consume. Buy your new iGooglePhone as an upgrade every one to two years(old one in the bin, or sold onto developing nations, but ultimately the bin) and it comes in lovely plastic coated cardboard which can't be recycled, wrapped in plastic bags with a plastic screen protector etc and all go in the bin. But no doubt somewhere on the box will be a recycling symbol or some such bullshíte...

    But back to cars and let's take two very different cars from very different eras and mindsets:

    A 1930's example

    And a current one:

    Now the old jalopy was dirtier in use, far less safe and slower than a snail on opium. On the other hand it was far "greener" to produce(don't have chrome plating to make it really "green"), it was more likely to be built locally and not shipped half way around the world and pretty much every single component in its construction, various metals, natural rubber, woods and leather can actually be recycled or will return to the earth without buggering up the environment. Go further and stick a leccy motor into the old yoke and it will be significantly "greener" than any EV you can buy today.

    Leave the Citroen in a field to rot and it'll have it's own little ecosystem within a few years, leave the Tesla to rot and well, good luck with that... Test the solls under it and see.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Sure and it could cause unbelievable suffering for people across the world, but we won't go extinct. Even if global temps were as high as the dinosaurs lived in, we would still not go extinct. We would survive in the less inhospitable regions of the planet. For us to go extinct the entire global environment would have to change to the degree that no mammals larger than a rat could survive.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I agree with you that individual action will do nothing to solve climate change. Our single most powerful tool as individuals is our ability to lobby governments and vote for parties and candidates based on their stance on corporate responsibility for climate change.

    We need our councillors, TDs and MEPs to know that their reelection campaign depends entirely on their track record on effectively tackling climate change. If the EU imposes strict standards on sustainability for all imports into the single market we will force global change.

    Money is always found to buy bombs and missiles when there is a military emergency. The money needs to be found to fund the climate emergency without constantly raising taxes.

    We need a ministry for the future. A political platform to advocate for the rights of the next generation who are so often being born as debtors to their parents wasteful and lavish spending



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,377 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    I don’t think anyone disagrees with you.

    The problem is there is no one that actually reflects these values to vote for.

    All the GP are interested in are getting the middle classes up to their neck in debt by pushing expensive EVs and retrofits.

    The more expensive these shinny objects are the more tax is made.

    It’s all consumerism



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭Shoog


    With a little effort and a bit of investment most houses could cut their heating bills significantly, down to a 1/3 or a 1/4 in most old housing stock. That would go a long way. A zero carbon house is best left to new builds though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    More expensive EVs, ther are high end, mid range and entry level brands just like ICE.

    If you think there is some Machiavellian movers above in the dial then your mistaken, although the sinners are trying there best but are as obvious as cow shite on a footpath.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    More expensive EVs, ther are high end, mid range and entry level brands just like ICE.

    There are, though they are more expensive than ICE at the moment. However that doesn't address the main problem of consumerism, a problem that has increased decade upon decade and shows no sign of slowing. Oh sure it'll make us feel better that we're doing something, but much like sorting our rubbish into different coloured bins, the reality is the effect is small, if not tiny. People are very local and very in the now, which is a big problem when it comes to issues that are global and longterm.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,377 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    What are you on about now?

    What EVS can you buy that are cheap? Sure you can barely get a 2nd hand one at this stage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,073 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    He would not have been one of my favourite politicians, but I would agree with him on that. On the big attraction, especially for younger Irish voters, on the Climate Change issue when it comes to voting, it reminded me of that old saying, "If you are not a Llberal at 25 you have no heart. If you are not a conservative at 35 you have no brain". Life`s realities and idealism rarely go hand in hand.

    Post edited by charlie14 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,141 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk




  • Registered Users Posts: 835 ✭✭✭mazdamiatamx5



    Eamon Ryan whining about guilt-tripping business class flying government ministers. This from someone who has devoted his entire career to guilt-tripping the public, and unfortunately he has the power to follow through with new taxes for things he doesn't approve of. He'll probably try to impose an tax on people saying things he doesn't agree with on the internet. What an utter fraud.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,049 ✭✭✭Mecanudo



    Meanwhile here we have greens determined to wreck our economy, including our agricultural sector, and make beggars of our population

    Looks like Ryan's at it again 🙄




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Agri wants less than or the min target, Ryan wants the high end of 30%,my guess is that we'll see something in the middle which will be missed and the other sectors of society will be expected to pick up the slack despite all other sectors having higher targets.

    Remember, whatever Agri doesn't reduce has to be reduced by everyone else so expect an unfair level of reduction being assigned to everyone else because farmers



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Lets not forget that we could eliminate our agricultural sector and it would impact the Irish economy not one jot. We do not primarily farm for domestic consumption so we would not impact the cost of living either. No one is asking for this but a significant reduction in the national herd would solve a lot of issue and save significantly in reducing the ongoing fines we are already getting from the EU for our water quality failures and will help avoid the fines we will inevitably get for missing emissions targets.

    Controversial but true.



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