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Sophie: A Murder in West Cork - Netflix.

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 109 ✭✭kerry_man15


    Best theory I've seen put forward so far. Especially the first line about the stakes involved matching the brutality of the murder. Remember the gunning down of Veronica Guerin in broad daylight about 6 months previously because of her investigations into drug crime.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    I know Sophie had a reputation for being feisty and fearless, but that would have been foolhardy in the extreme.

    If it transpires that drug trafficking was involved, it's more likely she happened upon it.

    The shed was Alfie's, so he would have to have been complicit in the storage and trafficking,

    and any toing and froing to the shed would have to be done along the back of Sophie's house, passing close by her back door.

    If Alfie was complicit and knowing Sophie was visiting, surely he would have warned the traffickers?

    It might seem far-fetched, but no more far fetched than the Bailey scenario.

    There might even be a French Connection, didn't the 'man from Marsellles' once look at Buying Sophie's house?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    If the killer flew into Ireland to kill Sophie he would have had more experience in hiding his flight and travel records. Taking the train to Belgium or the Netherlands and taking a flight to Ireland would have been it, - at least. I don't think the Irish police would have found anything out.

    Was Sophie ever visiting in December ever since she owned the house? Maybe not. Or the Richardson's? Maybe Alfie, if he was complicit in storing and trafficking, he would certainly not have expected Sophie or the Richardson's around at this time of the year. Alfie probably expected to move around the area in nearly total security and obscurity. What were Alfie's finances like? Would he have seen the need to comply with drug traffickers?

    Whom did Sophie confide in, when she was in Ireland? The Ungerers? Did she talk to them about drugs?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    I don't know if she had a habit of visiting in Winter, or if Alfie knew she was coming.

    Alfie would certainly have known she had arrived, she had been there 3 days and I believe they spoke to each other.

    I think the only local Sophie confided in was Josie Hellen, her housekeeper.( I don't know if confide is the right word)

    She also spoke to the publican in Crookhaven and his son who both spoke French, Sullivans I think.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I would have guessed that she kept in touch with the housekeeper. A housekeeper is probably easy to make complicit as well if necessary, that is, if drugs were trafficked in the area.

    It's O'Sullivan's Bar in Crookhaven she would frequent if she was around.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 870 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    I am of the opinion that, on the balance of probabilities, Sophie was attacked in the morning.


    It appears that she had had some breakfast ( remains in her stomach, cut loaf on the table )

    There were no lights on when the Gardai arrived. It seems unlikely that she would have ventured out into the darkness without turning on any houselights.

    Two of the first Gardai on the scene reported that the blood around her nostrils was wet.

    Although she drank a glass of wine in the evening ( and a couple more before that with the Ungerers ) no alcohol was detected in her blood or urine, indicating that sufficient time had elapsed to fully metabolise the drinks.


    So I think she was having breakfast when something at the gate attracted her attention, prompting her to put on her boots and quickly go down to the gate to deal with whatever the issue was.



  • Registered Users Posts: 79 ✭✭Polly701


    Yes, I've always thought this was a morning crime too.. someone arrived at the gate and she threw on her boots to go down and deal with a situation.

    Was it Alfie that was using her house when she was away? I don't know if this was ever confirmed? I can't imagine he would admit to it. But if it wasn't Alfie then someone else had used her house when it was empty - this person could be an unknown to us all? Perhaps this person had turned up hoping to stay at the house over Christmas and Sophie surprised him by being there?

    If I remember correctly.. she noticed that her bath had been used after the house keeper has cleaned it? And other little things prompted her to have a conversation about it to the housekeeper, Josie. She had talked to Josie about changing the locks and this was done earlier that year I think. So, this occasional squatter would certainly be a person of interest in this case? This person never came forward to rule themselves out?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I also think, in terms of probability, it's one of the most likely scenarios that happened.

    But also there is the blood stain on the door to consider. This would most likely have happened after the murder or some injury or attack? Possibly the murderer went to the house after the killing?

    It was often said, that Sophie suspected Alfie of using her bathroom in her absence? Why? I would often think that the water pressure would have been an issue in the area? Alfie and Shirley's house is higher up than Sophie's, - that's for sure. And some tampering with the pump at the pump-house would have aroused Sophie's interest enough to head out and investigate. The killer could have waited then and there....

    Also, are those houses connected to the main water system? Or is the water from that pump house and that is a well supplying these three houses with water?



  • Registered Users Posts: 870 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    I have held a nagging doubt about Alfie for a long time. A poster who was personally acquainted with both Alfie and Shirley partially convinced me that he could not have been involved and , to be fair, although he had a somewhat fractious relationship with Sophie, it is difficult to see that as a reason for such a vicious and sustained assault.

    But Alfie and Shirley are the only people who were definitely at the scene of the crime when it happened.

    I find it hard to accept that neither heard or saw anything.

    Alfie had a bandaged hand which he explained as a dog bite.

    I'm not accusing Alfie or Shirley, but I think that, if the tenuous evidence against IB is regarded as incriminating, then the circumstantial evidence ( based on that information in the public domain) against Alfie is at least as compelling.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I think a lot of people would think that Alfie and Shirley knew more than they said and find it confusing that they stated not hearing anything. It's hard to imagine to be the truth, no matter how you think about it. This kind of crime to be totally quiet is very hard to believe, - it could have been, but again, it's hard to believe.

    Not only were they the only ones definitely at or around the scene of the crime, they were also the only ones who lived there permanently. This means, they knew more about the neighbourhood than anybody else.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    The 3 houses are not on mains water.

    Sophie's house had it's own well, as did each of the other 2.

    There was no sharing of water.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    How did you get that insight?

    And what was the use of that pump house then?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Look at where the houses are. They are miles away from any reasonable sized cluster of houses. It would be totally impractical to supply dispersed rural housing with mains water.

    I'm about 5km from a reasonable size town. Every house around me has their own private water supply, own well and own pump house. It's the norm for one off rural houses.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    So was that pump house near the gates to supply water for Sophie's house? If so, isn't that a bit low, to pump water up to her house? I suppose she would have a well near her house, further up rather than down by the gates?

    Or the killer could have turned Sophie's water supply off if it was supplied by this pump house, he only had to wait for Sophie to come down.



  • Registered Users Posts: 933 ✭✭✭flanna01



    If it waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck, the chances are, it is a duck.....

    They say Alfie was in ill health, and couldn't possibly have sustained an attack, lifting and rendering numerous blows with a concrete block..?

    What about fight or flight?

    Everybody, when under extreme duress, has the ability to summon energy to escape a dangerous situation, weather that be running away, or fighting for one's life...

    In all probability.. This was a morning murder, the pointers seriously outweigh the chances of it being a nighttime attack.

    So, who was there...?

    Remember, this is the backend of nowhere, it's a dark, wintry morning, with nobody around..

    Except for the residents of this bleak spot.

    Enter, Sophie, Alfie & Shirley.

    So, by their own written admission, they had an early night, went to bed early the previous night, didn't hear a thing...

    Would that not suggest that they risen early too the following morning?

    We know that Sophie and Alfie had been in dispute with regards to leaving the gate open.. We also know, that Sophie had arranged a delivery of fencing posts and barriers to segregate her property, which surly bothered Alfie? (I believe they had argued already about this)

    Logically thinking, Sophie made her way down to the flash point - The gate. What motivated her to put on boots and go down there in the morning? Who else could possibly have been down there? Logically thinking, it has to be somebody that shared the entrance, somebody that was already on the site?

    Alfie could have been irritated already about the prospect of having his access reduced due to Sophie's fencing? The sight of the delivery of fencing posts must have brought the reality home? Words were exchanged, madness ensued....You know what happens next.

    In a fit of rage, Alfie lost all control of himself, picked up the nearest thing to him and battered Sophie with it. Realising the consequences of his actions, he had to finish her off.. Walks up to the pump house were he knows the top tier of blocks is loose, takes a concrete block and finishes her off.

    An injury is sustained to his hand during this frenzied attack. (Later to be passed off as a dog bite) (Even though they don't have a dog..)

    Maybe he was fully clothed for winter during this attack? The removal and disposal of these clothes could have been done efficiently with nobody around.

    The Gards didn't forensically examine his property... Christ, they even turned a blind eye to his freshly bandaged hand...?

    I'm not saying Alfie Lyons murdered Sophie... I'm suggesting the laws of averages swing towards him being a prime suspect at the very least.

    He had the opportunity, the motive and the means to clean up after himself.

    This is a far more likely scenario that the drunken poet skipping over in the middle of the night...



  • Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭Massive Berevement


    What I don't think I mentioned is that the storage/movement of drugs could very well have been timed around a full moon, which of course there was on that night. The ability would be there to transport the goods without using the vehicles lights which is surely an attractive prospect for trafficers.

    It's known Sophie made a complaint about drugs being in the area. Her house is so remote that "in the area" must mean in her locality. If it were going on miles from her and not where she lived she wouldnt even have known about it let alone have a grieveance enough to complain to the guards. Plus she was only there once in a while so for her to complain suggests to me that it must have been going on in front of her nose.



  • Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭Massive Berevement


    [Replied without quoting, fixed below]



  • Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭Massive Berevement


    She may have underestimated the seriousness of it. Its a quiet rural area, she may have thought it was small time and small scale. But some huge drugs busts have happened over the years with boats off that coast being intercepted so despite the rural location, chances are shipments in the area were serving all of Europe and that coastline was landfall after leaving South America.

    Alfie, if involved, warning the trafickers she was here wouldnt really have worked. They may have had satellite phones but theyd want to avoid detection so perhaps not. He may have had no way to contact them. Plus if South America was the origin then any shipment would have left way before she arrived.

    Finally, this would have been way bigger than any one local and her being in her house may not have cost them a thought. They'd simply deal with the threat in exactly the way they did and get away with it. Locals involved and on the payroll, guards in the back pocket. A non issue for them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    We also know, that Sophie had arranged a delivery of fencing posts and barriers to segregate her property, 
    
    

    I've not heard that story before, where did it come from?

    Alfie could have been irritated already about the prospect of having his access reduced due to Sophie's fencing.
    

    This is also new to me, where was this fencing going that was restricting his access?

    An injury is sustained to his hand during this frenzied attack. (Later to be passed off as a dog bite) (Even though they don't have a dog..)
    

    The injury to Alfie's hand was an old wound that hadn't cleared up, the doctor who examined Sophie's body looked at the hand ( at the behest of the Gardai I believe) and confirmed that it was an old wound. the source of the injury is unclear.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    My insight is from living in 3 properties that have had bored wells.

    The pumphouse in Sophie's case was at the well head and pumped the water up to her house.

    The drilling rig is a big yoke and the most suitable place for the well and pump would be decided by the well drillers.

    It is not that long a draw up to her house.

    If the well was bored further up near the house they would most likely hit the same water, so the well would be deeper .

    I can't see Sophie going down to the pumphouse to check the water in the dark or near dark.

    I can't understand your fixation with the water here, you keep coming back to it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Well, the killer must have gotten her attention somehow, or must have done something, if Sophie was to walk on her own down to the gates. At least it's a possibility.

    It all depends on how big and how professional the drug operation would have been. I'd say, Alfie would only have played a side role in this, and the local Guards were also paid off as well. The rest of the operation would have been handled from afar. Rural South West of Ireland would have been an easy location for an international drug operation. They probably figured out pretty quickly that the local Guards were not the most competent.

    Sophie's complaints would certainly not have gone anywhere, but the threat that she might take this further like to Dublin or to Interpol would have been there for them.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    and the local Guards were also paid off as well.

    where is the evidence local gardai were being paid off by drug runners?

    Sophie's complaints would certainly not have gone anywhere

    where does it say sophie complained about drugs and the evidence the complaint would certainly not have gone anywhere



  • Registered Users Posts: 933 ✭✭✭flanna01


    See the crime scene photo's - Posts and fencing already delivered and stored besides the house.

    She was threatening to either cut off or reduce his access in and around her property boundries.

    She originally thought she owned the shed, she didn't - Alfie owned it.

    It's possible it was tit for tat carry on... Sophie threatening to enclose all her property, possibly causing resentment with her neighbour.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This has a still from the beach video showing his hand. I have not seen it before

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    See the crime scene photo's - Posts and fencing already delivered and stored besides the house.
    

    I've only got the Koude Kaas photos , I can't see any fence posts stored by the house in those.

    If you know which photo number it would be good to have a look.

    She was threatening to either cut off or reduce his access in and around her property boundries.
    

    Any idea where she was threatening to do this? he had a right of way up to his house..

    She originally thought she owned the shed, she didn't - Alfie owned it.
    

    Her dispute was with the estate agent who assured her it was her shed when she bought the house.

    When Alfie bought his house and pointed out it was on his property on the maps she accepted this and they got along together after.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,276 ✭✭✭Deeec


    Can you post a link for this video?

    I can't be sure that that's Bailey. - the face looks different. It would be good to see the video to confirm it's him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,836 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    It's Bailey alright, don't know whose hand it is though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,276 ✭✭✭Deeec


    Sorry I meant the original video which this still was taken from ie. Showing Bailey moving and speaking.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don't have that one. It's in one of the docs but it does not show his hand i don't think

    edit actually the one from the jim doc does show his hand the one i posted just froze it



This discussion has been closed.
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