Is it time to join Nato

Podge_irl · 18-07-2022 12:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119352210#Comment_119352210

and yet a few hours ago you appeared to be bemoaning NATO expansion into Eastern Europe.

As to why Ukraine isn't in NATO, for one they have had and continue to have issues with regards to corruption and rule by oligarchy. NATO has standards for governance (nowadays at least) that they couldn't meet. Same way their EU membership is going to be very far away. It is not a "geopolitical game".

FrancieBrady · 18-07-2022 12:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353039#Comment_119353039

If 'people' in peril don't come first then it is geopolitical gameplaying. Estonia's government collapsed because of corruption last year, were they chucked out?

There is a list of reasons why the NATO leaders didn't want Ukraine in NATO - all of them related to their geopolitical concerns. Let us not fool ourselves that it is for humanitarian reasons. It's jockeying to be the lead power brokers in the world.

Yurt2 · 18-07-2022 12:41pm

And we're back to foggy notions "gameplaying".

Francie condems NATO as "tension rising gameplayers" but also thinks Ukraine should be in the organisation for their security. But they also shouldn't conduct military excercises.

F*cking hell.

FrancieBrady · 18-07-2022 12:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353111#Comment_119353111

If NATO are about the security of 'people' and don't prioritise other interests(game playing/willy waving etc), YES they should be in it. They asked to join and as yet have not been allowed to join.

Yurt2 · 18-07-2022 12:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353144#Comment_119353144

You're all over the shop.

This is prime-time Putinversteher guff.

bob mcbob · 18-07-2022 12:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119352999#Comment_119352999

So you are happy to work with Nato then ?

Yurt2 · 18-07-2022 1:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353090#Comment_119353090

Putinversteher. NATO is about the defence of its treaty signatories.

You condemn it but think that countries should be part of it.

The only 'willy' on display is Putin's langer jammed up the rear-end of some within the republican movement. And you can't say he hasn't had success courting them. Witness their voting record in the European parliament.

This stain won't come out of the carpet. Too many Republicans are making utter arses of themselves trying to reverse engineer a coherent stance after years of licking Putin's toilet seat. You're a prize example of it Francie. It's really embarrassing stuff.

Podge_irl · 18-07-2022 1:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353144#Comment_119353144

Hold on, can you define exactly what "game playing" is to you. As initially it appeared you were talking about war games and exercises which are a vital component of any defence organisation, then you pivoted to NATO's expansion into Eastern Europe which you now appear to be saying they should have been doing more of.

Yurt2 · 18-07-2022 1:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353231#Comment_119353231

That's exactly it.

He's been caught rotten.

FrancieBrady · 18-07-2022 1:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353231#Comment_119353231

Actions you pretend are for the greater good but which are in fact for your own good.

I clarified a few times for Yurt but he just insisted on using the misunderstanding to fire off some invective. I also parsed Yurt's argument about excercises and it seems to have excercised him too 😁...military excercises by NATO are 'training' and for defence purposes but if the Russians do it, it aggressive and sinister.

As I also said I try to see the situation from both sides in these international disputes - i.e. be neutral. And if you allow yourself to do that you will see two sides antagonising and sometimes threating one another (willy waving, gameplaying, call it what you want)

I'm not for a second ignoring the fact the Russians are completely out of line in their actions.

Yurt2 · 18-07-2022 1:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353302#Comment_119353302

No one misunderstood you. You immediately went for NATO excercises but we're completely ignorant to the reality and history of them.

blanch152 · 18-07-2022 1:37pm

9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353302#Comment_119353302

You really don’t have a clue.

FrancieBrady · 18-07-2022 2:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353420#Comment_119353420

I posted it as an example of the gameplaying and clarified when you misunderstood.

I can't do any more for you than that.

It's clear you have no cogent answer because you continue this stuff.

NATO will act in it's own geopolitical interests. When it comes to it, the safety and security of people is below those primary considerations.

Yurt2 · 18-07-2022 2:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353728#Comment_119353728

Lol, cogent answer. You're a hoot.

The fella that thinks Putin is awful naughty but that Europe shouldn't have credible defence. That defence is "gameplaying".

That NATO is expansion is bad, except when it's good, but also bad. But Ukraine should be in it, despite that it's bad.

Riddle me this, oh oracle of neutrality, if an EU mutual defence arrangement was concluded you'd probably object to that as "gameplaying" as well wouldn't you?

FrancieBrady · 18-07-2022 2:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353758#Comment_119353758

Here we go with the stock misrepresentation. 'Putin is naughty'? I never at any stage said Europe should not have defences. And the point I made, which you seem to have misunderstood AGAIN, is that 'IF NATO is about protecting people first then Ukraine should be in it, but of course NATO isn't about that, it is about it's own or major players geopolitical interests first IMO' and I posted an article outlying why Ukraine is not in NATO as proof of that.

Come back to me when you are prepared to respect differing opinions to your own.

Yurt2 · 18-07-2022 2:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353844#Comment_119353844

So, you want credible European defence except without military excercises. Which are bad and "tension raising" and "gameplaying".

Eastern Europe states should be defended but NATO expansion bad, except that Ukraine should be under the tent. But expansion is "gameplaying".

And vis-a-vis Russia and NATO, "they're both at it"

You're a serious joke. These are all your words you've posted over the last 24 hours or so.

You're "opinion" is a non-opinion and isn't worth respecting. It's mask for toxic residual anti-everything that infects a certain part of the republican movement. Putinversteherigkeit in extremis.

FrancieBrady · 18-07-2022 3:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353874#Comment_119353874

So, you want credible European defence except without military excercises. Which are bad and "tension raising" and "gameplaying".

Where diod I say this? This is YOUR spin.

Eastern Europe states should be defended but NATO expansion bad, except that Ukraine should be under the tent. But expansion is "gameplaying".

Was joining NATO the only way they could have secured them? Would security garuntees from individual powers have been a better way. There is little doubt that NATO ringing Russia was seen as agression. That is not an excuse for Russia's subsequent behaviour BTW. But just imagine if the fantasies came through and Russia surrounded us or another country and how it would be viewed. I.E. See things from both sides.

And vis-a-vis Russia and NATO, "they're both at it"

Yes they are, as that article from the NYT shows, they will both look after their own interests first. Concern for the people is not the primary consideration. As a British MP once said of NI, 'we have an acceptable leve of violence'.

You're a serious joke. These are all your words you've posted over the last 24 hours or so.

You're "opinion" is a non-opinion and isn't worth respecting. It's mask for toxic residual anti-everything that infects a certain part of the republican movement. Putinversteherigkeit in extremis.

More invective. Ignored.

TheTruth89 · 19-07-2022 4:17am

Nato is by far the best thing to happen the world it keeps the scum and wannabe tough nations in check the likes of Russia or china arent gonna do a thing to the west because they know what will happen to them militarily if they try, its great that the west has its boot to there necks and they should keep it there as long as possible the world is a better place for the west being in charge its the best we'll get.

Anyone living in the western world should be celebrating NATO and the freedom and security it provides the west and to everyone including those that whine about it, because if the shoe was on the other foot and the other lot was in charge all the anti establishment whingers and the likes would be rounded up. Be grateful you can freely voice your opinion about nearly anything without without fear of reprisals or punishments.

FrancieBrady · 19-07-2022 9:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119357104#Comment_119357104

We had the 'boot on our own necks' for a very long time and one thing is clear the world over. If that is how you need to run things to get your own way or keep your own order, it will always always result in violence ...always. It's nothing to be proud of IMO

TheTruth89 · 19-07-2022 2:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119357410#Comment_119357410

Do you want the boots back on your neck? didn't think so! You should be glad we have NATO to keep nations that would gladly infringe on the rights of smaller nations like Ireland given the chance and they wouldn't lose a wink of sleep over it. Its always going to result in violence it always has and its far better to be on the right side of the stick than the receiving end.

If you were in those countries you wouldn't have the luxury to criticizes the military or established order like you are here on board's you'd be rounded up and that's the reality of it go look at Russia and China and the likes look at the alternative.. You cant even say Russia is at war in Russia ffs, I for one hope NATO and American military dominance continues its far fairer than the alternative

FrancieBrady · 19-07-2022 3:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359256#Comment_119359256

On we will go with the aggression, willy waving and geopolitical gameplaying.

No wonder the Irish people are saying they want no part of it.

Yurt2 · 19-07-2022 3:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359477#Comment_119359477

Nobody's still any the wiser as to what you mean by "gameplaying". Like I said, it resembles more an animal noise you're making rather than trying to explain what exactly what you mean.

TheTruth89 · 19-07-2022 3:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359477#Comment_119359477

Oh man do you realize what these countries would do to you and yours and your "Peace and hugs to all" approach lol these people don't want peace they want what you have and they are willing to take it off you by force.

Irish people are doing the same thing we ve always done trying to be coy and clever and lookin out for ourselves, we don't want to send our soldiers to war or contribute but we want to avail of the peaceful life provided largely by NATO deterrence and our location. As a nation and contributor on the global stage in terms of security we are basically the equivalent of "Drawing the Dole". Ask yourself what's stopping Russia from rolling over Lithuania and the likes or China taking Taiwan? Is it your hugs and kisses approach or is it the strength shown and fact that they would be butchered militarily ?

But go on then what's your alternative plan? do tell us. It's peace by strength and that's been the order of the day since the dawn of time, you don't have to like it but its a fact.

FrancieBrady · 19-07-2022 3:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359598#Comment_119359598

Read the link to the NYT article...every single reason for keeping Ukraine out of NATO bar the security and lives of it's people are the concerns.

If you put other interests ahead of that, then that is 'game playing'...you are playing games with people's lives.

FFS this isn't rocket science.

That's the VERY LAST time I will explain this. Take care.

FrancieBrady · 19-07-2022 3:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359634#Comment_119359634

As I said, it doesn't particularly bother me if we get a benefit from others protecting themselves. We get hurt enough by the war games and aggression as it is. It all balances out.

TheTruth89 · 19-07-2022 3:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359671#Comment_119359671

What war games and aggression? and what balances out ???

Yurt2 · 19-07-2022 3:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359656#Comment_119359656

Lol, you think NATO expansion and the defence of Eastern Europe is "gameplaying" in the first instance.

I'd love to do a CT scan of your brain as the cogs are whirring trying to come up with something semi credible. I'm surprised you haven't given yourself an aneurysm. It's a tough station trying to bury the evidence of long held Putinversteherung without looking like a complete fash enabler and at the same time desperatley not wanting to admit NATO is the only thing standing between Russia taking a cut at Warsaw or Prague.

FrancieBrady · 19-07-2022 3:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359705#Comment_119359705

Tensions created by the two blocs or with the Middle east cost us plenty, oil prices and the effect of that on the economy, going out to peace keep etc.

So we get a benefit in protection from, let's face it, what is a fantasy apocalypse scenario really. It all balances out.

Yurt2 · 19-07-2022 3:54pm

Francie thinks Putin just needs a back rub and a bit of understanding.

It's big bad NATO and all the "gameplaying" bringing war back to the European continent. He read it in An Phoblacht, and they're never wrong.

bob mcbob · 19-07-2022 5:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119352999#Comment_119352999

Sorry Francie I did not see an answer to a question I raised on this. The areas of current threats to Ireland in particular cyber warfare and hybrid warfare are controlled at a Western level thru Nato. So I assume that as you are happy to work with other governments what you in fact mean is you are happy to work with Nato.

Is it time to join Nato

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