Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

I am sure if there was a biological Womens sport and just a Womens sport then Trans Women into sports would be happy to compete in the latter but there is not. There is men's sports and women's sports. As long as the Trans Woman has fully transitioned and is at least a year on hormones then I see no problem with her competing with other Women. Anything else is disgrimination.

Many famous trans- people, including the former Olympian herself, Caitlyn Jenner, disagree with you.

Ye you see she is a bit messed up. I have nothing against her transition it's just her whole family I think that are messed up.

@Bannasidhe

Looks like you have a full house with "these (transphobic) trans people agree with me"

This whole thread is embroiled in arguing trans men in womens divisions is cheating so no I don't think this dodge has flight.

....your entire raison d'etre in this thread is to alienate trans persons from sports based on resentment of trans womens scores. You're having an absolute laugh.

There's nothing mislabeling or besmirching about it: Caitlynn Jenner wants to exclude trans women from a feminist activity.

Ironically you won't win the debate either by shouting biological this and that, or shouting meow woof bark. Apparently that wasn't alienating enough!

Where have I personally said that transwomen are cheating. I've said they have an unfair advantage and provided data to back up my point (we can agree to disagree on the interpretation, no point in rehashing it).

I note you didn't ask the poster talking about reduced testosterone and heavy bones for data.

I consider cheating breaking rules to gain an unfair advantage. I haven't accused any transwomen of breaking rules and their advantages are as a result of nature not deliberate actions on their behalf.

Now you may believe this would be cheating except you disagree there is any advantage either that or you're obfuscating in order to deflect from the notion that even a small number of competitors with unfair advantages is unfair to the majority of competitors.

The debate is around inclusion or fairness. You can't have both just 1 or the other.

You gonna be okay there? What did I do wrong this time according to your pearls

To you.

Are the thousand words related to finally feeling like a woman in a womans body, being more attuned to your physicality and therefore performing better?

Or are there a lot of words you think its telling but isn't really telling.

Or maybe it doesn't mean what I said either, since she got 3.76% slower after she transitioned.

@Bannasidhe I guess we're at the recycling complete garbage card stage.

It's you who says it's tantamount to cheating and you are entitled to that opinion but I disagree with that.

It would be cheating where a man transitioned to be a woman with the sole intention of winning at sport. It's not impossible given potential rewards from prizes, sponsorship or other rewards but I would have thought instances would be rare and I'm not aware of any case.

It would also be cheating if rules existed to stop transwomen competing in the women's category and a transwoman deliberately hid the fact they were assigned male at birth. Again not aware of any cases.

Including everyone is fair in terms of inclusion not necessarily fair in terms of competition.

It's tantamount to saying it's the taking part that counts not the competition part of competing. Let's not keep score and everybody gets a medal.

Why not?

Should we go back to race segregation of the leagues as well? For fairness?

Is this competition unfair to white skinned people? Why not?

You're advocating apartheid or claiming black supremacy?

Biologically the only difference between those people and the white skinned people are the colour of their skin.

I'm not aware of Melanin conferring specific advantages, are you?

No I'm cross examining your position, and not understand why your argument only applies to trans in gender divided sports and not the fairness of race divisions. For example, the 100m elite is dominated by black participants.

Folks in thread would with the thin logic they have presented here have us believing that this matter of fact should force us to conclude that blacks competition in mens racing is unfair to white men, because the top tier (shown in the above image, the 2012 100m Olympic final) was dominated by all black athletes, they 'robbed white men' of something something.

If you find this argument repugnant you should, it's the logic racists used to segregate the races and it's the same boilerplate logic trans-exclusionaries are pushing now to exclude trans athletes from being athletes. They used junk science to argue physical differentiation between the races, too. History seems like it's repeating itself.

Are you arguing for the elimination of the female/women category completely and have one open competition? (which is what is inevitably going to happen for the male category in non-contact sports) If you want to argue separate leagues and an ability to cross those leagues, you should also state what those leagues should be and the entry criteria.

Ultimately the whole area comes down to being inclusive or being fair, both are not possible at the same time. Sports, over time, will come down on the side of fairness, it always has. There will be lots of huffing and puffing till that point.

(I would also add that a denser skeleton is an advantage even with reduced muscle mass and that lower centre of gravity will depend on height of the individual and those with a female pelvis will always be at a disadvantage at the same height due to a less dense pelvis and putting more stresses on the pelvic and knee joints during movement, which also burns more energy, due to the legs being at a greater angle by default).

Really, that seems to be the best outlook.

While enough states eventually 'ratified' the Equal Rights Amendment, it was slow-walked so it would never actually happen .... but I digress, this isn't a lecture about the history of the ERA in Congress or whatever, or the reason it hasn't been constitutionally ratified... The fact is a plurality of American legislatures eventually agreed that this should be amended into the constitution:

Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

On its face, I would argue this will ultimately steers the culture toward the elimination of the division between the genders and the sexes both and towards the right of everyone to be an equal competitor.

We could debate all the reasons why black African American and Caribbean men dominate sprints and Ethiopians and kenyans long distance running but never the other way around when they are all black but that's a different subject.

Explain why the science around transgender is junk. I'm open to changing my position if rationale science supports it.

Include the data to support your position please.

Because if anything, the last thing a woman would ever want to win is Equality, am I right?

Your conjecture is not won out by facts on the ground BTW

Perhaps we should address why you presume so little of elite female athletes?