Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

All Blacks v Ireland part III - July 16 8.05am Ireland time

1272830323335

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,738 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    For minority sport nationally and globally rugby does grab a lot of the print media and I suppose we have had some level of success nationally with it as well as within the club game.

    However there are a few things working against rugby moving forward, none more so than the concussion/injury issues that aren't going away. It will always make it a difficult sport for parents to start their kids in.

    While great work has been happening to grow the game in areas where it hadn't been traditionally strong I do think we need to get to the business end of a WC to glue together that progress and get more kids interested in the sport. Right now I think we are a few key injuries/loss of form of a 38 year old away from getting to the business end of the WC.

    A great series win against NZ no doubt, papers well full of it and rightly so, but NZ will be a different outfit in a year's time..Will we?



  • Registered Users Posts: 20 FairPOV


    Ireland was extremely lucky to win the series…..they were lucky the AB were red carded in the second test….they were lucky there was confusion and Ardie couldn’t play for 50 minutes…they were lucky they weren’t red carded for exactly the same head butting offence in the third test….aaahhhh the luck of the Irish.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    There's a contradiction in calling the Ta'avao red 'lucky', and then separately calling the Porter yellow 'lucky'. You can't have it both ways. We were probably lucky Porter only saw yellow, but not lucky in the slightest that Ta'avao was sent off.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20 FairPOV


    When Sexton went off in the first test it was like Ireland were playing with 14 players and lost badly….. they were rudderless…. Same with us in the second test plus a couple of yellows to boot….you can’t say the red card in the second wasn’t lucky for you when you look at what happened to you in the first test



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭jacothelad




  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,949 ✭✭✭SuprSi


    Ironically that post completely contradicts your username. The ABs were lucky Scott Barrett wasn't red carded/cited, that Peyper didn't award a penalty try, that Fainga’anuku wasn't red carded. I believe Porter was fortunate not to get a red card but to say Ireland were lucky to win is doing a massive disservice to the team and the quality of rugby played, and you can be guaranteed the ABs aren't looking at luck being the reason they lost.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    So New Zealand were lucky to win the single test they did, because Ireland's best player was off injured for most of it.

    Roger that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭jacothelad




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    I mean, yeah, the initial post was a bit hysterical. But to be fair, the "luck" element is something I've been reflecting on myself. I don't think many would dispute that NZ win the third test (i.e., the series) if Porter had been red carded. And given current refereeing practice, I think he sees red more often than he doesn't. So we can't really conclude that we were anything but lucky here.

    A lot of the luck going the other way is also somewhat immaterial. NZ were lucky that Leicester F wasn't red carded, or that a penalty try wasn't awarded for the early hit on Ringrose, or that they played a two-minute stretch of that match with a man extra on the field. But all these incidents were in the second test, which we won anyway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    They were lucky that Sexton went off injured in the first test. Losing him seemed to be directly responsible for our collapse in the second quarter which is why we lost that game. They were lucky that there were 6 occasions that we crossed the line and didn’t ground the ball in the first test. How often does that happen? They were lucky that Barrett didn’t see a card for his hit on POM. They were lucky that they didn’t see a yellow for repeated infringements before the 78th minute in the first test. They were lucky that a bad pass from Sexton was compounded by a poor decision to pass from Ringrose and that was then further compounded by Lowe slipping allowing for the intercept try in the first test.

    Luck played a big part in their first test win. Luck played a big part in our second test win. In close games luck will play a big part. We’ve seen contacts like Porter given as a yellow before so while we got lucky that it wasn’t a red you could also say NZ got lucky if it had been a red. As I said before, if you look at how that luck balanced out over the course of the series it was probably even enough.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 20 FairPOV


    This.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,736 ✭✭✭Shehal


    I still find it amusing that people exaggerate the influence of the red card in the 2nd test and conveniently forget the fact that NZL were totally on the ropes even before the red card...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    Sexton's injury is really the only thing here I'd consider both lucky and impactful on a result.

    I'd consider our failed executions, missed tackles, poor decisions etc to be something we can control and improve upon. I.e., things we have agency over and less to do with our opposition's luck. Unless you want to extend all victories and defeats to the "luck" of being better or worse than your opposition!

    Also, Barrett would have been carded quite late in the first test, if I recall correctly. I.e., long after the game was lost.

    When I think about "luck" impacting things, I am thinking specifically about situations that were largely external to either team's agency and directly impacted one of the three results. So for me, it's Sexton's injury in test 1 and Porter's card in test 3. Can't think of any others for now...



  • Registered Users Posts: 20 FairPOV


    Ireland played the better rugby over all and the first half of the third test was the best 40 minutes in Irish history. For teams to beat NZ they have to be at their very best and they were. They are now calling for Fosters head which is totally unfair and wrong. Even so I would like to see Razor Robertson move into the job now and bring in new blood to the team.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,484 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    They are now calling for Fosters head which is totally unfair and wrong. Even so I would like to see Razor Robertson move into the job now and bring in new blood to the team.

    Do you arrive at a fair POV just by contradicting yourself?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,964 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    On the Porter card , Barnes at least is very consistent in how he interprets these incidents - There was a similar incident in the Premiership final 6-8 weeks ago as well.

    Rightly or wrongly , the way he views them is that if there is head on head contact it's a card.

    The difference for him between Red and Yellow is where the majority of the momentum is coming from - He felt that Porter was static and "accepted" the contact rather than drove into it so that made it Yellow - Had Porter been moving forward and driving upwards etc. then it would have been Red.

    Barnes came to exactly the same conclusion in the Prem Final as well. Hard to know how Barnes would have view the Ta'Avao card as it was probably 50:50 in terms of momentum , but he might have gone with Yellow there too.

    To be honest , I think the Barnes approach is fairer and more measured than a blanket Red card but the wider argument is less around if Barnes was right and more about the inconsistency between Refs and TMO across different games.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    The two incidents are different in that one has the tackler moving forward and the other has the tackler standing his ground.

    Further to that the ball carrier was trying to run away from the tackler in one instance and in the other the ball carrier aimed at and ran directly into the tackler.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,578 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    I thought yellow for Porter was absolutely the right call from Barnes. Porter didn't try a dominant 'hit'. A high proportion of the force was coming from the ball carrier. It was a bit like that time Danny Cipriani got red-carded because Rory Scannell ran into his shoulder with his head. That call was just flat out wrong, for me. It was a fairly passive action from Cipriani.

    Where Ireland were a bit lucky is with Aki not getting scrutinised for his counter-ruck effort on Tu'ungafasi. As far as I can see the only thing that would make that not be a red is that from the available camera angles it might not be completely clear and obvious where he makes contact. I think Aki can be really good - the NZ commentators were impressed with how he dovetailed with Sexton in attack - but there's always this danger of a red card looming over him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,879 ✭✭✭TheRona


    There's many differences between the two. Ta'Avao's was clearly accidental, Porter had plenty of time to adjust, making it look much more like a deliberate thing.

    I do find it strange a few comments coming in about the ball carrier running in a straight line into contact somehow contributing to a high tackle. Surely a player trying to avoid contact while a tackler goes in is much more likely to result in a serious incident. With a player running straight, there's no surprises at the point of impact. It's not like Porter didn't have time to prepare, he made a conscious decision to stay high. Not to mention that Retallick is what, 6'8"? Takes some effort to complete a high tackle, even if he is running with his head slightly down.

    It's all academic anyway. Ta'Avao's was a red card, the Citing Commissioner decided that Porter's should have been as well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,124 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    Let's not overlook the fairly obvious tip tackle on JVF early in the game while he was being cleared out of a ruck. I've seen yellows given for them more often than not but it wasn't brought to Barnes attention by the TMO. I also think Savea was blessed not to get a yellow for picking that ball up from a ruck on his own 2 metre line. Whether he thought it was out or not is immaterial and I've seen Barnes give cards for those types of infringements before. Especially in those types of situations.

    Overall, I thought Barnes had a very good game and let both teams get on with their business. He certainly wasn't the winning or losing of that game for either team.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,879 ✭✭✭TheRona


    Depends whether you think a red card to Porter would have been the winning or losing of the game.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,124 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,484 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    The decision hasn't been given yet, has it?

    There's not a whole lot of time to adjust, in fairness. Porter runs laterally behind Furlong and the collision occurs as soon as he reaches Retallick's channel. I don't think Brodie can see Porter at all before the impact.


    What are coaches supposed to say to players in cases like this and the Ta'avao/Ringrose incident ? You basically have to let the ball runner run past you and take the legs from behind, right? Does anyone think they could make either of those tackles correctly and safely from head-on?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,879 ✭✭✭TheRona


    No, but a player can only be cited if the Citing Commissioner believes that the offence warranted a red card.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,964 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Indeed and that again is a question of interpretation.

    It's the inconsistency of that interpretation that is the problem here.

    As I said above , I think the way Barnes consistently interprets it is probably the most fair , but not everyone does that and not everyone is consistent in their decision making across different games.

    It's not the decision , it's the consistency that's the issue.

    That applies across the board for every decision a ref makes in a game - All that can be asked for from players and coaches is consistency - If you have that you can adjust accordingly and move on , but if each time you play you are wondering where the offside line will be or what constitutes off your feet at a ruck etc. it's impossible to play.

    And that's before we get anywhere near Red Card/Yellow card type stuff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,124 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,188 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    The problem is that people are drawing false equivalence between the Ta'avao and Porter incidents. Unless we go back to the situation where any contact with the head is a red, they're not comparable.

    TBH, I think the Porter yellow was fair, but Aki could have got (at least) yellow for his headfirst clearout, so I think we did get a decent run of luck in the third test. We got shafted with a couple in the first test, these things usually balance out.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,484 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Why do they have the hearing in that case? If the citing commissioner overrules the ref then that should be it, no? Is it just about the biscuits and suit and "I'm so sorry" and automatic 50% reduction ? We could surely do without that idiotic palaver.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,146 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    They have the hearing to discuss the actual case. To give the player the opportunity to show cause for why they shouldnt be treated as if they were sent off. A red card in a game means an automatic citing review.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,188 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    No, the citing commissioner refers things to the citing committee, only the committee can decide if a red card should have been issued. The commissioner has no power to issue a decision.



Advertisement