Russia - threadbanned users in OP

astrofool · 19-07-2022 1:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119358667#Comment_119358667

a) not a warzone according to the aggressor

b) Ukraine is defending itself, that is precisely what the equipment would be used for. "defence purposes"

Now, the Swiss are the Swiss, but there really isn't a grey area there, if they were truly "neutral", they wouldn't export any equipment.

BKtje · 19-07-2022 1:27pm

I think it is too easy to criticise Swiss neutrality during WW2, especially looking back on it 80 years later with the hindsight that comes with that. They were at one point totally surrounded by Axis nations. A lot is made of their hiding of Nazi gold but they did also shoot down German Luftwaffe fighters that entered their airspace.

More important is the question of their current neutrality and I can tell you that many people here are not ok with it with regards to the Ukraine - Russia conflict however I can understand their overall reasoning. Your neutrality once lost is not something easy to re-establish and would require (I imagine) a popular vote to overturn.

Podge_irl · 19-07-2022 1:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119358667#Comment_119358667

It is not neutral. Supplying arms to a country is, by their own definition here, taking the side of the country they are supplying the arms to.

Not to mention it would be going to Ukraine "for defence purposes".

timmyntc · 19-07-2022 1:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119358809#Comment_119358809

When not at war, presumably any side is free to buy arms from them. That is still neutral.

Supplying to one side during an active conflict is not neutral. Not that hard to comprehend

Podge_irl · 19-07-2022 1:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119358829#Comment_119358829

Selling a massive stockpile of arms to Country A who then proceeds to use them to invade Country B, whereupon you then refuse to engage with country A to provide them any arms would not be neutral. Though it certainly helps the Swiss to pretend otherwise.

The Swiss are as hypocritical about their supposed neutrality as much as we are, just in a different way.

Strazdas · 19-07-2022 1:42pm

Good article in the IT from a Russia expert assessing Russian public opinion towards the war. He reckons they 'do' support it but are having to engage in cognitive dissonance to justify it and may feel that support for the regime is the least worst option. It's clearly a deeply dysfunctional country and poles apart from its neighbours in Europe (hence the guys we see on state TV sounding absolutely barking mad to our western ears).

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2022/07/19/russian-public-buys-into-putins-propaganda-and-supports-his-war/

BKtje · 19-07-2022 1:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119358809#Comment_119358809

Where did you find their definition of supplying arms? As far as I understand their rules, they can sell arms to any nation on earth as long as that nation is not currently at war or that it will be used in conflict zones. Buying the munitions for self defence for use against a possible future aggressor is different to supplying munitions to a country currently at war (be it defensive or otherwise).

Switzerland have clearly defined rules for this kind of thing and any change to their rules takes time. It usually has to go through a popular vote which generally takes at least two years (though I don't know if that covers their neutrality).

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-block-german-request-to-re-export-tank-ammunition-to-ukraine/47548036

Darth Putin · 19-07-2022 1:51pm

Article on how possible offensive in Kherson would look like

https://kyivindependent.com/national/what-would-a-ukrainian-counter-offensive-in-kherson-look-like

Edit: Ukraine started hitting the only bridge on the Dnipro

https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1549334062363467776?s=20&t=jlfBTHZeOqVWr4NTI1ERSg

The potential to trap 10 Russian BTGs behind a 300m wide river is high

Podge_irl · 19-07-2022 1:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119358876#Comment_119358876

I don't care what their definition is nor do I care that they are following their own rules. It is still pathetic and reflects poorly on Switzerland.

If you want to truly be neutral don't export arms.

thomil · 19-07-2022 2:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119358929#Comment_119358929

Not sure whether that's the best plan, at least if they still want to retake the other bank of the Dnipro. Yes, it's a Russian supply line at the moment but it is easier to cross a river via a bridge than it is to do so with amphibious forces. This is doubly the case for resupply. A 300 meter wide river is a formidable obstacle for any army.

thomil · 19-07-2022 2:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119358493#Comment_119358493

The ammunition in question was 35mm autocannon rounds for the "Gepard" (German for Cheetah) tracked AA vehicles that Germany has committed to send to Ukraine as per the latest official list provided by the federal government in Berlin:

Military support for Ukraine | Federal Government (bundesregierung.de)

At the moment, the Bundeswehr has enough ammunition to supply each of the 30 "Gepard" vehicles with 6000 rounds of ammunition, which is basically nothing. In a news dated July 11th, German news channel n-tv states that the chancellery was able to find a new supplier in Norway that is able to produce the 35mm rounds for "Gepard". Tests of the new ammunition supposedly took place at the Bundeswehr's Putlos training range this week, according to the n-tv article. The same article also states that the first vehicles are supposed to be delivered before the end of the month.

Article (German): Ukraine-Krieg: Hersteller für fehlende "Gepard"-Munition gefunden - Wehrressort in Norwegen - n-tv.de

Darth Putin · 19-07-2022 2:36pm

Interesting article with quotes/references about Russian supply issues

The theory is that when Russians break, they will break quickly as happened near Kiev

https://nadinbrzezinski.medium.com/logistics-collapse-945984f5d48e

Edit:

https://www.19fortyfive.com/2022/07/putin-has-a-problem-is-russias-new-ukraine-offensive-already-failing/

BKtje · 19-07-2022 2:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119358936#Comment_119358936

Depends on your definition of neutral I guess and your version does not correspond to the reality. You could also say that you export arms equally to all nations whether at war or not and this would still be considered as neutral under some definitions.

Podge_irl · 19-07-2022 2:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359313#Comment_119359313

Yup you could, which is more or less the definition the Swiss would have used during WW2. They adjust the definition they use as it suits them.

Obviously they can do whatever the want but I don't think there is anything moral or principled about their stand.

Hobgoblin11 · 19-07-2022 2:57pm

https://t.me/dneproperatyv/35481https%3A//t.me/dneproperatyv/35481

Explosion reported near Nikopol

Darth Putin · 19-07-2022 3:16pm

Good point

https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1549288855085502466?s=20&t=-x_LfEn_IteYkJYXurRHNg

Yurt2 · 19-07-2022 3:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359282#Comment_119359282

Two thing from those articles:

1. They can't find people to hose down the human remains from the husks of javelin destroyed tanks to make the frame somehow serviceable again. F*cking grim

2. The Wagner Group mercenaries are now just convicts sprung from prison.

Dial up the pressure on Russia, they'll crack soon. Let the rockets rain down on their sorry skulls. The mid-August assessment from the first article seems highly optimistic, but we could well see the collapse before the year's end and before winter. I can't see them having the stomach to be getting slaughtered en-masse in the snow with no equipment and without even rations getting to the front.

Strazdas · 19-07-2022 3:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359553#Comment_119359553

I read something yesterday about the conscripted convicts turning out to be useless in battle. Hardly a surprise - a lot of them would be ill disciplined layabouts and drug addicts and so on.

zv2 · 19-07-2022 4:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119358516#Comment_119358516

Personally I think it is appalling. Soldiers/civilians' welfare goes beyond politics. At least it should. They can't say 'It's not politically correct to help you'. Even some decent Russian soldiers and medics help wounded Ukrainians.

zv2 · 19-07-2022 4:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359553#Comment_119359553

The worst thing the west could do now is hesitate. Like the saying goes 'He who hesitates...'

Yurt2 · 19-07-2022 4:07pm

It really was a joke thinking that Russia was a peer military power of the US. The professionalism and power projection capacity of the US (at least when you task them with conventional warfare and not trying to turn Afghanistan into South Korea) is decades ahead of Russia. It's not even a conversation.

Strazdas · 19-07-2022 4:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359833#Comment_119359833

Much of it came from Kremlin propaganda aimed at the serfs. "We're one of the greatest nations on earth" etc. What it ignored was just how rancid and corrupt the place has become under Putin - a second rate banana republic with delusions de grandeur. The corruption and kleptocracy is a huge factor.

zv2 · 19-07-2022 4:16pm

Some of the responses here are as entertaining as the subject-

Anonymous Operations on Twitter: "Russia Says It’s Losing Because Ukraine Has Experimental Mutant Troops Created in Secret Biolabss https://t.co/xP4Gjld9ML" / Twitter

Dubh Geannain · 19-07-2022 4:26pm

The spokesman of the battalion named after Sheikh Mansur, Islam Belokiev, said that the Ichkerians have started preparations for hostilities in Chechnya. Ichkeria is divided into three fronts and 16 sectors. There is an intensive collection of information on cities where the Russians are deployed for attacks.

"If Chechnya trembles, Russia will collapse" Belokiev

https://twitter.com/SergijOleksandr/status/1548680666665177089?s=20&t=AJIysOfYu6xHor170UPAWw

Didn't see this posted but could have missed it. Could be just bluster but time will tell. Also, I think he looks a bit like Eric Cantona.

Yurt2 · 19-07-2022 4:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359932#Comment_119359932

It's extremely high risk making young men from the Caucuses jump into the meat grinder. If those republics turn on Moscow, all hell will break loose.

And yes, he rather does look like Cantona doesn't he? Anyone seen King Eric lately? Exactly the type of thing he'd get up to.

RGARDINR · 19-07-2022 4:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359790#Comment_119359790

Probably the case but some would have military experience and let's be fair if there killed on the Battlefield its one less person in a Russian prison they need to guard so a win win for Russia. They get more people to fight in Ukraine and if they die 1 less for Russia to guard back in their jails/gulags. Only thing is I wouldn't want to be captured by some of them I can only imagine what they they would do to Ukrainian service people if they capture them and I can only imagine what some of them would be like around civilians. Some of them shouldn't ever see the light of day and now they have a gun and let loose in Ukraine.

19-07-2022 5:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119358667#Comment_119358667

It wasnt a problem in ww2 though for the swiss

They played both sides no problem then

19-07-2022 5:11pm

Russian war correspondent and milblogger Maksim Fomin stated that Russia has begun a “volunteer mobilization,” where every region must generate at least one volunteer battalion. The term “volunteer mobilization” likely implies that the Kremlin ordered the 85 “federal subjects” (regions, including occupied Sevastopol and Crimea) to recruit and financially incentivize volunteers to form new battalions, rather than referring to literal mobilization relying on conscription or the compulsory activation of all reservists in Russia. Russian outlets reported that regional officials recruit men up to 50 years old (or 60 for separate military specialties) for six-month contracts and offer salaries averaging 220,000 to 350,000 rubles per month (approximately $3,750 to $6,000).Separate regions offer an immediate enlistment bonus that averages 200,000 rubles (approximately $3,400) issued from the region‘s budget and social benefits for the servicemen and their families. Russian media has already confirmed the creation or deployment of volunteer battalions in Kursk, Primorskyi Krai, Republic of Bashkortostan, Chuvashia Republic, Chechnya, Republic of Tatarstan, Moscow City, Perm, Nizhny Novgorod, and Orenburg Oblasts in late June and early July.Tyumen Oblast officials announced the formation of volunteer units (not specifically a battalion) on July 7.

Volunteer battalions could generate around 34,000 new servicemen by the end of August if each federal subject produces at least one military unit of 400 men. Some Russian reports and documentation suggest that the Kremlin seeks to recruit an estimated 400 soldiers per battalion, who will receive a month of training before deploying to Ukraine. The number of men may vary as some federal subjects such as Republic of Tatarstan and Chechnya are establishing two and four volunteer battalions, respectively. It is possible that some federal subjects may delay or not participate in the establishment of the battalions, with officials in Volgograd reportedly remaining silent on the formation of the new units.Newly formed battalions are currently departing to training grounds and will likely complete their month-long training by end of August but they will not be combat ready in such a short time period.

Darth Putin · 19-07-2022 5:18pm

A month of training…

Strazdas · 19-07-2022 5:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119360047#Comment_119360047

If there some ex-military among them, you could probably turn them into soldiers, but a lot of the others are just going to be unfocussed layabouts. Men who have ended up in the slammer are not likely to be disciplined or professional or types that will respond well to authority. I was reading that they have been very low calibre on the battlefield so far.

Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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