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All Blacks v Ireland part III - July 16 8.05am Ireland time

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Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That's not a good enough reason imo. I can't think of a huge amount of red cards that late in games.

    I would argue that the 20 min red card would almost encourage more aggressive high hitting, particularly early in games.

    Marquee players, out halves mostly, would be lined up and nailed at the beginning of games by cynical teams because the punishment is so manageable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,402 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    I genuinely don’t understand the first paragraph, are you suggesting that a 20 minute red card is worse than a red card? Of course one early in the game is going to affect the game more that’s no reason to make things easier in the offending player.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,153 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    I'm not sure I get the argument that it would lead to more agressive high hitting. If you take out the 10 every week and take a 20 min red, the amount of suspended players is going to add up very quickly. It may only affect the team for 20 mins, but the player will still face a citing and a ban. Keep doing it and the bans will get longer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,394 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Just reading through the above - it’s important to note that much of the New Zealand analysis I’ve seen has not been hiding behind the Porter decision as a reason for their defeat.


    Their focus is far more on their tactical approach and lack of cohesiveness in attack.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,394 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    In terms of what to do, it’s hard to get away from red cards ruining matches in rugby. It doesn’t always (Australia beat England with 14 for 50+ minutes) of course, but it does often enough. England’s red card in Dublin last year rendered the outcome a formality.


    The question becomes whether that’s a price worth paying (I think it is) as we view the whole issue as an existential threat to the sport, much greater than disappointing contests during the transition period.


    I’d probably lean towards removing the nuance in the laws that makes Porter’s challenge not a red card. Draw the line in a place where players are incentivised to change their game quite significantly on this issue.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭blackcard


    Looking back at the match, NZ created many of their own problems. An off the ball tackle led to a penalty and a try from a maul. When they got possession, they kicked garryowens, lost lineouts, got turned over in a maul, knocked on, missed a straightforward penalty, took out players beyond the ruck. Now I know we caused them problems which led to issues above but they are nowhere as good as previously. It will be interesting to see how Ireland go at scrums and against bulkier teams like South Africa, France and England



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'm not saying teams will go out with a concerted strategy to take out the 10 every week; but definitely some teams will adopt an aggressive strategy earlier in games thinking: "Let's go out and lay down a marker early; put in some hard shots, try to rattle the opposition. Even if we get one wrong, the penalty is manageable because we'll be back to the full complement in short order".

    Right now, if a team is overly aggressive early they face the risk of 70 mins with 14 men; under this scenario they could only face 20 mins with 14 men. You don't see how that sort of structure would cause some teams to be more aggressive?

    I take your point about suspensions etc, but in must-win games where teams aren't thinking down the road, I do believe this sort of thinking will prevail.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yeah agreed.

    What will be interesting for the All Blacks in South Africa, given how poorly they defended against us over the series is how different a challenge SA are going to present for them.

    I watched all three tests of SA against Wales and at no point did I think they clicked and played great rugby, but their historic strengths of set piece solidity and the driving maul are superior to Ireland's, and we caused the All Blacks problems there. Not having Retallick doesn't make that any easier to cope with either.

    I doubt we'll see the same level of experimentation and changing from SA either, so it's really going to be an intriguing challenge to watch.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,188 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    But sometimes bans matter and sometimes they don't.

    If Porter had been suspended today, he'd have been banned for two URC games in September that he wouldn't have been playing in anyway. It was no real punishment. Likewise, if you're playing in a World Cup final and you've a chance to take out their best player in the first few minutes, would you care if you miss the next game?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,578 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    I wouldn't be surprised if a team down a man for a large part of a game due to an early red card were more likely to suffer injuries (possibly including concussion) due to probable increased fatigue late in the game.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    If red cards are having too much of a bearing then maybe the solution is for the players to stop infringing in ways that lead to red cards? You know, put the responsibility on the individuals doing the things, rather than on the officials who have to react to those things after the fact. I know that may seem novel/crazy/bizarre, but it’s worked before (see tackling players in the air).



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Yep. They are sleepwalking into a really big litigation problem.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,879 ✭✭✭TheRona


    I'm not sure how bringing out that tired argument brings anything to the discussion.

    A player can be red carded in the first 5 minutes for something completely accidental - red card and the team is down to 14 for the rest of the match.

    A player can deliberately strike another player in the first 5 minutes of a match, doesn't get caught, and goes on to have a man-of-the-match performance helping the team to win.

    A player can tackle a player in the air in the last 2 minutes of the game - red card, only misses 2 minutes of the match.

    More reds doesn't stop accidental things from happening. I'm only suggesting an alternative that still punishes the player, but is fairer across the board. An infringement in the 10th minute is the same as one in the 50th. A missed red card offence doesn't mean a team played an entire match with 15 when they should have been down to 14.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,146 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    A red card is the ultimate action a referee can take and primarily is reserved for the most serious of foul play. The timing of an offence is irrelevant and we are talking here about professional sport. if a player commits a red card offence then we dont need to make anything fairer to his team because he committed a red card offence be that intentional or not



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,402 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    So have we arrived at some people get away with not getting carded so people who are caught shouldn’t be punished as harshly?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    hear what you’re saying about games ruined. But certain things…..shoulder / head to the head, tip tackle without care…..need to be an immediate unambiguous red, unless completely accidental. The Ryan Jones situation I imagine will focus the mind of authorities further. Sonny Bill could have permanently damaged Anthony Watson in the Lions tour

    it will mean red cards occasionally ruining games until a completely new generation, still playing underage rugby, are coming through. When those playing senior rugby have muscle memory that has developed under the new tackling rules which the IRB have instructed to be rigorously and immediately enforced (below waist tackling only until I think U-15s, and below armpit tackling at U-15/ and U-18s thereafter).

    Players have just gotten too powerful and the game hasn’t kept up with it. If the new underage rules has been in place for the last decade we wouldn’t see this happening as much now. The game is playing catch up on safety and, for now, reds cards and sitting out the game has to be part of that



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    In terms of a red card, it's a red card. Player off. Done. Doesn't matter if 1st for 81st minute.

    If a player does strike someone and it's missed, then it is a total failure of the system(ref, lines person, video etc etc) but it's not like they will suddenly see it because the red is only for 20 minutes so don't get what the point is. In both scenario nothing happens the player and they can do on to have a MoM

    I said it already, the problem is not the red card, the problem is the player making a silly tackle.

    What I have seen is that NZ never got red cards, history here from web(till 2018)

    Cyril Brownlie (vs England), Twickenham Stadium, 1925

    Colin Meads (vs Scotland), Murrayfield, 1967

    Sonny Bill Williams (vs British & Irish Lions), Westpac Stadium, 2017

    Now after Sonny Bill the ref's started to lock down more. In reality in the 2016 game v Ireland they should have got at least 1 red card but that never happened.

    Anyway the ref's started to clamp down and NZ haven't taken it too well, now they want the entire World to change the red cards, not going to happen. That is for good of game and if WRU did change it they might as well hand over all their money now to the legal cases


    This was against NZ by the way

    Red cards against the All Blacks

    Benjamin Fall (France), Westpac Stadium, 2018

    Damian de Allende (South Africa), Cape Town, 2017

    Bismarck du Plessis (South Africa), Eden Park, 2013

    Jamie Heaslip (Ireland), New Plymouth, 2012

    Simon Shaw (England), Eden Park, 2004

    Jean-Jacques Crenca (France), Athletic Park, 1999

    Danny Grewcock (England), Carisbrook 1998

    Andre Venter (South Africa), Eden Park, 1997

    Bill Cavubati (Fiji), Albany, 1997

    Huw Richards (Wales), Brisbane, 1987



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    This is part of the problem. Oh it was accidental, there’s nothing you can do about it.

    BS

    There absolutely are things that can be done. Players tackling upright is something that can change. They can get lower. They should be getting lower. Tackling a ball carrier while standing fully upright is a habit that can be broken. You’ll never be able to get rid of it fully but you can reduce instances of it.

    Paying some bloody attention to the ruck before you launch yourself head and shoulders into it is another habit that can be developed.

    Saying it’s accidental and nothing can be done is nothing short of a lazy cop out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Leinster v Wasps in 2017 IIRC

    Willie Le Roux dropped the ball while diving unchallenged over the line



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,879 ✭✭✭TheRona


    It's not a cop out at all. There are plenty of things that happen in rugby that are accidental, or have no malice, or are due to mistiming in a dynamic situation. You're confusing this with examples of deliberate actions, which are punished anyway.

    Despite the crackdown in many aspects of the game in recent years, concussion rates are at an all time high. If there was evidence to suggest that 20 minute red cards did not have an negative impact on player welfare, would people care? I suspect not.



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  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,484 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    WR could start by removing the reward (scrum) for tackling a player upright and holding him there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    The red card from the second test wasn't accidental though, it was regrettable certainly, and I'm sure the player involved wishes he hadn't been sent off for making the mistake of tackling so high. He deserved a red card for causing the head clash due to his negligent tackle technique, and hopefully he will learn how to take more care to slow down enough to ensure when he makes a tackle that he has allowed enough time to get his tackle height down lower to an appropriate height to avoid getting carded.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,501 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    But the cost to the other team is uneven too. If I do a late hit and take out Johnny Sexton in the 1st minute of the game, I can be replaced by another player after 20 mins, but Johnny is out for the entire game....

    If I take out Johnny at the 60th minute, he's only been removed from the final quarter of the game

    A red card offense is the most severe punishment available in a game of rugby. It needs to punish both the player, and his team, because otherwise it incentivises tactics where the key player from another team can be deliberately injured

    In the business end of a tournament, the only punishment that counts is on the pitch, citing the player or banning them afterwards is meaningless, for example, Porter will get a 2-3 game suspension which will be for games that he wasn't going to be selected for anyway as he will be rested at the start of next season to make up for his extended season with Ireland



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,484 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Porter won't get any suspension as his case was dismissed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 104 ✭✭joedamuss


    Red cards should be for blatant foul or dirty play, accidental rugby collisions which do happen where there is mitigation should be yellow, a citing can then be carried out as happened in Porters case. A little bit of common sense is needed as was shown by Barnes on Saturday.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,501 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    looking at that injury list there are way too many 'Concussion - indefinite' injuries



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,188 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    There are plenty of things that happen in rugby that are accidental, or have no malice, or are due to mistiming in a dynamic situation. 

    And the referees have plenty of scope to look at those mitigating factors and decide on the level of sanction.

    The rules don't need to change, player behaviour does.

    Concussions are at an all time high because players are bigger and stronger than ever and there are more games than ever.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,964 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    I thought is was also interesting that there seemed to be multiple different descriptions for the same thing - Concussion.

    Some guys were listed as unavailable for "Head knock" , others for "HIA" and then a few where it actually said "Concussion"

    Why the equivocation?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,501 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I'm guessing a Head Knock is where they have a minor head injury that is not deemed to be a concussion and they'll be back after a week or so, a HIA is where they're still assessing the injury to see if it's concussion or not, or if they're on the return to play protocols, while concussion is the most severe of the three where there is persistent concussion symptoms and the player has failed the assessments in the return to play protocols and so they cannot give any estimate of when they might recover

    Some of these guys may never play again, and others will play again who probably shouldn't



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  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Gabrielle Steep Bubble


    Porter didn't mean to belt Retallick in the face, and the NZ prop didn't mean to take out Ringrose as he did, but in both cases the tackler should not have been upright. That's the behaviour that needs to change. I think we got very lucky with Porter not getting sent off or banned. He's broken Retallick's cheekbone as far as I know, it was clearly a dangerous tackle.



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