Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

Quantum Erasure · 19-07-2022 11:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119361881#Comment_119361881

would you call the fact that cis men can't compete against women in most sports a sorry indictment of society?

Quantum Erasure · 19-07-2022 11:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119361964#Comment_119361964

You are arguing for inclusion but doing so by denying there is any physiological advantages because you don't like it and nothing more to support it. It's the equivalent of those racist academics you are decrying.

boom. mic drop

CatFromHue · 20-07-2022 12:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119361888#Comment_119361888

This is bizarre reasoning. So once upon a time scientists got it wrong, that's assuming you're right about what happened with black people, therefore they're still getting it wrong.

Do males have a physical advantage over females? Yes they do, this is backed up by science and real world results.

Does the transition process remove all this advantage? No it does not, this is backed up by science and real world results. Even in non trans people when testosterone is suppressed it doesnt equate to a loss of muscle strength. A treatment for prostate cancer is Androgen Deprivation Therapy

"Androgen deprivation therapy (ADT) is a prostate cancer treatment that suppresses the production of testosterone (a type of androgen or male sex hormone) in a person’s body. Prostate cancer cells require testosterone to grow, so stopping testosterone production can shrink or slow the growth of the cancer"

When it was studied what the affect ADT has when combined with a weight/fitness regime the below was found.

Background

Androgen deprivation therapy (ADT) in men with prostate cancer (PCa) results in adverse effects, including reduced muscle strength and physical function, potentially compromising daily functioning. We examined whether it was more efficacious to commence exercise at the onset of ADT rather than later in treatment to counter declines in strength and physical function.

In conclusion, implementing exercise in PCa patients initiating ADT not only preserves but enhances muscle strength and physical function, despite their compromised hormonal status.

Here's the link to the paper so you can read it yourself

Timing of exercise for muscle strength and physical function in men initiating ADT for prostate cancer | Prostate Cancer and Prostatic Diseases (nature.com)

So we've the science on trans people, I've linked a few papers on this already, the real world results of this, the success of Lia Thomas, Hubbard, and other transwomen, and we've results on fitness and testosterone reduction in males who are not trans.

This is a lot of science and real world results to ignore because of something that happened a hundred years ago.

Annasopra · 20-07-2022 7:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119361857#Comment_119361857

The problem is that many on one side of this "debate" have a real agenda that they shouldnt exist.

chopperbyrne · 20-07-2022 1:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119358786#Comment_119358786

Will Thomas never qualified for an NCAA Division I Championship Finals.

Came back after a year off, with reduced testosterone levels as Lia Thomas, and easily qualified, and won Gold in the 500M Freestyle.

Hubbard was a nobody in male weightlifting, and qualified for the Olympics as a 45 year old once switching to the female category.

When below standard males suddenly become elite females, it's obvious to anyone with any critical thinking skills why it's an issue.

Bannasidhe · 20-07-2022 1:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119363910#Comment_119363910

How many medal in international tournaments do they have?

How many World or Olympic records have they set?

Seems to me they transitioned and became average elite athletes.

is_that_so · 20-07-2022 1:31pm

An opinion piece from Michael McDowell in IT today on this, advocating common sense.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2022/07/20/trans-rights-a-question-of-reasonableness-and-common-sense/

BattleCorp · 20-07-2022 1:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119363929#Comment_119363929

I think the point you are missing is that they made it to the elite level competitions, i.e. the Olympics and NCAA Division 1 Championship Finals in the female category, whereas their times/lifts before transitioning wouldn't have qualified them to get to the Olympics and NCAA Division 1 Championship Finals in the mens competitions.

Will Thomas was ranked 554th in the Male 200m. Then Thomas transitioned and became Lia Thomas and came 5th in the NCAA female 200m. I know it's only one event but that's some jump to go from 554th in the mens category to 5th in the female category.

Deny all you like but biological men have an advantage in most sports over biological women.

Bannasidhe · 20-07-2022 1:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364019#Comment_119364019

Point you are missing is that despite all the bruhaha that transwomen will dominate women's sport with their inherent advantages, and all the guff about shoulder width, and muscle mass, and them being "biological men", and no biological woman could ever ever beat a biological man because man big and strong and women weak and puny or some such rubbish - they have utterly failed to do so.

Nearly 50 years since the first trans woman athlete was allowed to compete in a major international competition there have been no medal winners and no record setters.

Zero. Zilch. Nada. None.

Their performance pre- transition is immaterial.

Their performance post-transition is average for an elite woman athlete. Biological women are consistently beating them.

BattleCorp · 20-07-2022 1:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364082#Comment_119364082

Sorry, it's you who isn't getting it.

Male athletes such as Will Thomas wasn't good enough to make the elite levels of the male competitions yet when they transitioned and become Lia Thomas, they suddenly jump 500+ places when they compete as a woman.

I also never said that no biological woman could ever beat a biological man. What I'm saying is that at absolute elite level (e.g. Olympics), a biological woman is unlikely to win anything because the physical differences between men and women is too great to overcome.

Overheal · 20-07-2022 2:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119362130#Comment_119362130

The eugenics movement was not hundreds of years ago. Nor was the academia. Do better.

Overheal · 20-07-2022 2:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119362011#Comment_119362011

I think I’ve been clear about where I think equality is headed. To answer your question, yes. They compete in war they can compete in sport and everything lesser.

Bannasidhe · 20-07-2022 2:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364128#Comment_119364128

Regardless of how often you deadname Thomas the fact remains that Lia Thomas is not even ranked when it comes to elite swimmers at international level.

She is ranked 36th in US College rankings, and 46th nationally in the U.S.

That advantage she is meant to have is looking fairly shite tbh.

chopperbyrne · 20-07-2022 2:42pm

A medically transitioned trans man would be considered doping and illegible to compete. I wouldn't want to see any woman displaced by another who was doping.

Enduro · 20-07-2022 2:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119363929#Comment_119363929

Ia your opinion that only the elite of the elite are entitled to fairness in psorts, and everyone else has to just put up with inhernent unfairness?

You've been asked twice by 2 different people whether you belive the female category should exist in sports, and if so why? You've ignored this twice so far. Is there are a reason you refuse to answer?

astrofool · 20-07-2022 2:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364243#Comment_119364243

War isn't sport, your analogy is broken. Even the great leveller of guns are more effective when the person pulling the trigger is a male, on average.

However, if it were to be entertained, then you would expect to see participation by females on the frontlines equal to the % of females in the army. This isn't the case. Their roles tend to be in support (or increasingly at the backend where physical prowess isn't as important). There is of course, some females on the frontline, but they are outperformed by their male counterparts on average in effectiveness (combat ability, being able to carry equipment). When there are strict physical requirements, very few females make the cut and those that do are a significant % off, on average, the males that make it (understanding that a lot of males don't make the cuts either).

I would also note that mixed training sessions in sports do occur, very frequently, more frequently at the lower and amateur levels, Djokovic will happily have a sparring session with Williams. When it comes to competition however, they compete in different classes and necessarily so (otherwise, we would see 0 female competitive athletes).

Now maybe millions of years from now, breeding of the species will mean that everyone gets the same amount of testosterone, estrogen and same skeletal makeup while also being able to continue the species, but it seems unlikely given current evolutionary trends.

The other thing that could happen is for sports to move beyond the physical, but again, we don't see many females compete at the top level of esports either (and there is a few).

Another option would be for the competitions to be delineated by ability, this would see females compete in lower divisions alongside males. This would also likely be the death knell for women's professional sport (the money goes up exponentially with the divisions and the female competition is often paid the same as the male competition).

Or of course the final answer of "why do people bother competing at sport, there's much more important stuff so it should be a hobby for everyone, those millionaire prem players should be paid the same as a butcher or baker". i.e. if we weren't so interested in competition, then this issue goes away (but then the ability for anyone to be an elite athlete is also gone).

Bannasidhe · 20-07-2022 3:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364393#Comment_119364393

Yeah, I have a life and your questions are further down my list of priorities than Lia Thomas is placed in the international ranking for women swimmers. Plus if I was going to respond to every demand I am tagged to answer a question in this thread it would be a full time job.

I have addressed my view that fairness in sport being an illusion, esp at elite level, more than once in this thread. If you want my opinion go back through the thread.

There is not, nor has there ever been afaik, a "female' category in sport. There is a "women's" category. A very long time ago it was called "Ladies".

I am open to being persuaded it should stay or it should do - depending on the arguments put forward.

However, given this thread is about transgender athletes competing as their identified gender I fail to see the relevance to this discussion so frankly if I wanted to go off down that tangent I would be participating in a thread specifically about that topic/

Bannasidhe · 20-07-2022 3:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364380#Comment_119364380

A medically transitioned Trans man may compete as a man as long as his hormone levels are within the required parameters and he is selected.

What about the men he is displacing?

The boys who wont get a chance because a 'girl' says she a 'guy' so 'she' can cheat?

You must be incandescent with rage over that. 'Girls' taking 'boys' places. Whatever next?

astrofool · 20-07-2022 3:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364502#Comment_119364502

That was more down to oppression, it was always "The competition" (which would be male) and then, if it even existed, "The women/female/ladies/girls competition". I can see the delineation being dropped even as the rules for entry are tightened.

The Oscars uses male/female, I wonder if they'll change or update it at some point.

astrofool · 20-07-2022 3:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364552#Comment_119364552

There is an argument that anyone using medical intervention that impacts performance shouldn't be allowed to compete (i.e. TUE exist for low levels, but you wouldn't be able to compete if steroids were required to treat a condition, through no fault of the person).

Ultimately, it will end up in practical compromise prioritising fairness, rather than trying to allow everyone on any medication to compete.

It also seems that you're at an argument of "some limits should be in place" i.e. you need to be taking some medical intervention, which means you're at the mercy of science and stats and numbers as to what exactly those levels should be (or you need to follow overheal and say that there is no barrier at all).

Bannasidhe · 20-07-2022 4:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364590#Comment_119364590

Now I'm being told what I am "at the mercy of" or else I "need" to follow someone else's position (no offense @Overheal ).

Do ye (collective plural) ever tire of telling complete strangers what they think, what position they should take? Such perfect lives people have here that they can spare the time to put me to rights on my beliefs and positions.

Or - and this may be a radical idea - I might have my own position where I accept that sporting organisations have the right to set their 'limits' (your word not mine) whether or not I agree with them, however - they should apply those "limits" equally across the board.

If a biological woman is expected to have testosterone limits within set parameters in order to compete then if a trans woman's testosterone is within those limits she should be allowed to compete.

I think the current rules around the scrum in rugby are stupid. If I was still playing rugby I would play by those rules. While calling them stupid and telling everyone who would listen why, in my eyes as a front row forward, I believe they are stupid. However, if the scrummage rules for men and women were different I would have a very serious issue with that and would be doing far more than grumbling.

Sporting bodies have policy documents on inclusion. Rules about fostering inclusion and diversity. Then apply different criteria as to which women can play all depending on their testosterone levels - and no distinction made between naturally occurring or not. That is not inclusion - that is policing women's bodies.

No-one tests men for oestrogen which builds muscle mass among other things - men's bodies do not require not 'verification'.

bokale · 20-07-2022 4:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364128#Comment_119364128

Where is the 500 coming from. Is this during transition? I don't fully understand these swimming stats, but reading on wiki (I know) it seems pre transition she was rated higher than "500" in men's leagues.

"Thomas began swimming on the men's team at the University of Pennsylvania in 2017, and during her freshman year, recorded a time of 8 minutes and 57.55 seconds in the 1,000-yard freestyle that ranked as the sixth-fastest national men's time, as well as 500-yard freestyle and 1,650-yard freestyle times ranked within the national top 100.[5] On the men's swim team in 2018–2019, Thomas finished second in the men’s 500, 1,000, and 1,650-yard freestyle at the Ivy League championships as a sophomore in 2019.[5][4][9] During the 2018–2019 season, Thomas recorded the top university men's team times in the 500 free, 1000 free, and 1650 free.[10]"

astrofool · 20-07-2022 4:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364796#Comment_119364796

If a biological woman is expected to have testosterone limits within set parameters in order to compete then if a trans woman's testosterone is within those limits she should be allowed to compete.

Just as equally, if a biological woman is expected not to have gone through male puberty, then the same criteria can be applied to a transwoman.

Incidentally, oestrogen blockers are monitored due to their performance enhancing effects. If oestrogen doping was a performance enhancement, it too would be monitored among the many signals already being monitored for elite athletes.

I said you were at the mercy of what science tells us if you accept that limitations are needed. It seems you reject that stance, which means you should be telling us what should be guiding us instead of science (or not at all if you wish, we're not going to solve the issues on boards.ie).

No one is telling you what you should do, however, it is perfectly reasonable for others to point out the direction your argument is heading without expecting a personal attack, this was pretty uncalled for, you're on a public forum, if you're tired of your positions being questioned, step away, or not, don't accuse me of telling strangers what they think, the argument can get pretty heated, I try and represent the scientific aspect for sports without any prejudice, call me on it if my facts are wrong, we're all learning, my position has changed as I have learned more and more and I'm really not interested in getting into the "existence of" argument that others do, people can live how they wish and where they wish, but I understand that for fairness in sport that it can't be inclusive of everyone at the top levels or in competition:

Do ye (collective plural) ever tire of telling complete strangers what they think

CatFromHue · 20-07-2022 4:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364226#Comment_119364226

You're literally ignoring anything you don't like.

Annasopra · 20-07-2022 5:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364424#Comment_119364424

No. A lot of the people interested in this issue dont really care about sport at all.

Overheal · 20-07-2022 5:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364963#Comment_119364963

I could say the same thing of trans-exclusionaries.

Annasopra · 20-07-2022 5:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364380#Comment_119364380

Wtf is this absolute drivel?

CatFromHue · 20-07-2022 5:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364796#Comment_119364796

You used to be able to highlight sections of a persons post but you can't seem to do that anymore.

On the testosterone level part. There are number of differences in male bodies that give them a physical advantage over females which reducing testosterone for a period of time will have no affect on eg. height, bone density, Q Angle. This isn't "guff" it's biology, the biggest differentiating factor when it comes to sporting performance is biological sex.

I have posted a study, which you ignored, that shows reducing testosterone level for a period of time does not equalise the performance difference between trans women and women.

Just to remind you

"Here, we report that current evidence shows the biological advantage, most notably in terms of muscle mass and strength, conferred by male puberty and thus enjoyed by most transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed as per current sporting guidelines for transgender athletes."

Transgender Women in the Female Category of Sport: Perspectives on Testosterone Suppression and Performance Advantage | SpringerLink

Podge_irl · 20-07-2022 5:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364986#Comment_119364986

Speaking of "telling people what they think"...

CatFromHue · 20-07-2022 5:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364989#Comment_119364989

If you're talking about me I've backed up everything I said with high level references.

Overheal · 20-07-2022 5:13pm

You used to be able to highlight sections of a persons post but you can't seem to do that anymore

[ You end up doing it manually by typing a '>' then a space ]

Overheal · 20-07-2022 5:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119365028#Comment_119365028

So did the Eugenics Movement. It became extremely popular and commonplace for a time.

Bannasidhe · 20-07-2022 5:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364948#Comment_119364948

Banging on about male puberty again - when not one Trans woman athlete who went through male puberty has ever won a major international competition or set a world/Olympic record just shows you have zero interest in 'fairness' imo. You are just spouting talking points and ignoring nearly 50 years of demonstrable evidence which shows this 'male puberty' advantage has no advantage in the real world of top flight sport.

Where is the evidence men have to have their gender verified?

Testing for doping and testing for conforming to a specific set of hormonal requirements to 'prove' your sex in ordered be allowed to compete are two different things. Men never have to do the latter.

astrofool · 20-07-2022 5:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119365057#Comment_119365057

If being female was shown to be an advantage in a sport, then it would be tested for in the men's competition.

I'd agree that it it's early on for trans people in sport to bring in the rules, but as long as it's based on scientific study and analysis, then it can't really be argued with (you can of course dispute the science, but number of world records is anecdotal evidence, how many would need to be set before action was taken? Or are you saying that a trans athlete will never set a record with the previous testosterone only rules?). We've already seen the oldest ever weightlifter athlete at the Olympics and a swimmer jumping from top 500 to top 10 in their class, at what point would you reassess?

chopperbyrne · 20-07-2022 7:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364998#Comment_119364998

It's a response to a post asking if I would be okay with a medically transitioned trans man displacing women from teams/events/podium placements, which appears to have since been deleted or edited.

Assume it was a "gotcha" attempt.

CatFromHue · 20-07-2022 7:23pm

If the numbers transitioning was static it would be one thing but the numbers are continually increasing, and they're also transitioning at a younger age.

So transwomen are going to be competing in sport more than they've ever been before.

Sport is different than the rest of our lives as in sport for one person to win, another must lose. For one person to qualify, another does not qualify. So framing it as only an issue if transwomen are breaking world records regularly is incorrect.

I've mentioned Fallon Fox before. She competed in MMA at a level below UFC and didn't win any championship belts or events. In one of her fights she knocked out her competitor breaking her orbital bone and leaving her needing staples in her head, Fox was 38 years old at the time of the fight. Orbital bone fractures from punches is very very rare in female combat sports. Thirty eight year olds giving that type of injury in either male or female combat sport is rare. She was also a featherweight so again this increases the rareness of that type of injury.

What we do know is that females have lower bone density. Also

"Twenty men and 19 women participated. "We had them fill out an activity questionnaire," Morris says, "and they had to score in the 'active' range. So, we weren't getting couch potatoes, we were getting people that were very fit and active."

But even with roughly uniform levels of fitness, the males' average power during a punching motion was 162% greater than females', with the least-powerful man still stronger than the most powerful woman."

Why males pack a powerful punch: Upper arm strength, different from females', may have specialized for forceful blows -- ScienceDaily

Remember 162% is roughly 2.6 times that of the females and I've shown already that transwomen retain most of the muscular advantage that males have.

Enduro · 20-07-2022 7:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364986#Comment_119364986

How much do you care about sport? For example, could you link to a post that you have made in a sports thread (in the sports category) that has nothing to do with trans-gender sports? Are you a complete hypocrite or do you care about sports?

Overheal · 20-07-2022 7:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119365625#Comment_119365625

Speaking for myself I don’t give half a discus throw about sport. I care about human rights though. I have maybe 2 or 3 posts in the sports category the entire time I’ve been here.

We’re not discussing the finer art of sprinting, swimming boxing MMA etc. here we’re discussing trans inclusion.

Enduro · 20-07-2022 7:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364502#Comment_119364502

"Yeah, I have a life and your questions are further down my list of priorities than Lia Thomas is placed in the international ranking for women swimmers."

😁 Genuinely witty response is appreciated!

There are plenty of sports which use the term female category rather than women category. Some use girls too since there are plenty of sports with females under 18! And that's just the English language. There is a big world out there which use all kinds of non-English words for female. Until recently this was all pretty self-evident and well understood.

I have read your opinions on fairness in sport, and it sounds like you don't think fairness would be possible unless we were identical clones of each other. For someone who has participated in sport, I'm very surprised at your viewpoint on natural genetic advantages. By your definitions fairness in sport could never possibly be achieved between any humans. It's a very nihilist viewpoiint.

CatFromHue · 20-07-2022 7:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119365650#Comment_119365650

This explains a lot as for people who don't compete the points I've been highlighting can be easily ignored, as you have done. For those who do compete these are major issues.

Bannasidhe · 20-07-2022 8:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119365238#Comment_119365238

Absolutely not having a go at you personally but this sentence, to me, is indicative of a particular mindset that objects to trans women athletes not out of transphobia per se (although their resulting position is transphobic) but from from sexism.

If being female was shown to be an advantage in a sport, then it would be tested for in the men's competition.

A sexism that simply cannot accept that being biologically female is not a 'disadvantage', that there are sports where it is an advantage, stop considering the sports that are designed around biologically male bodies as being all that there is to sport. And realise the gap between the top men and the top women is often a matter of a second or two.

There are biological females who are suburb athletes and while I am certainly not claiming that a biological women would beat a biological man at elite level as things stand, these women are still elite.

Yet some here seem to think Jimmy Blogs who runs for the local athletic club and used to sprint for his college could beat Shelly-Ann Fraser-Pryce.

The reality is although Fraser-Pryce wouldn't beat any of the top 100 elite biologically male sprinters over 100m, her current best time (10.67) is closer to Paul Hession's Irish record (10.36) [ 0.31] than Hession's is to Bolt's (9. 58) [0.78].

Put simply, there is far more of a chance that Fraser-Pryce could beat Hession's time that any Irish Biologically male sprinter will beat Bolt's.

Elaine Thompson-Herah's fastest time is 10.61, Flo-Jo's record at 10.49 still stands (whatever about allegations about her - her record stands) - that is just 0.13 off the fastest Irishman ever (to date).

There are literally fractions of a second in it.

Yet time and time again women who prove they can do fast/strong get dismissed as 'outliers' - when the reality is very single elite athlete is a outlier.

We are told women who train damn hard, and have outstanding physical capabilities, and literally do the job alongside men, are 'lesser'/not as capable/there for show. As if women firefighters are there for show. Or women soldiers don't do runs with full packs that would cripple most men.

But at the end of the day - this is not about biological females competing against biological males at the highest level.

This is about trans women being allowed to compete as women at the highest level. Trans women who have been taking hormone blockers that are proven to negatively affect their performance from pre-transition times for at least 2 years .

There are, as far as I can see only three reason's to object and all camps are represented in this thread:

a) Trans women are men and therefore can never be regarded as women under any circumstances.

b) No biological woman could ever possibly be a better athlete than a biological man not even when the 'biological man's' so- called hormonal advantage is largely nullified. Therefore it is unfair for any biological woman to compete against a trans woman as the trans woman will win.

c) Men are transitioning as they are mediocre/old and want sporting glory. The only way they can do this is by 'cheating' and taking girl's/women's places

There is no point arguing with the former - their position is ideological, and sport is just one of many 'battlefronts' - it's not even like they care about women's sport.

On b: the fastest (biological) woman over 100m is only 0.13 seconds slower than the fastest (biological) Irishman over 100m. As women's sports becomes better financed and resourced the gap will close (we can see the impact of this in women's rugby where the professional English are in a different league to everyone else), and it is well within the realms of possibility that in the coming decades no Irishman will be fast enough to beat the top 10 women.

And as to the latter : If that is true it ain't working cos honey, they ain't winning.

But if anyone seriously thinks a person would go through the hassle of officially changing gender, taking serious meds (and in some cases undergoing serious surgery - largely self-funded), and living every single day hearing how you are a cheat, a pervert, a groomer, a threat to women on the slim chance they might beat the best of the best than you really belong with the a) group as it appears you are incapable of believing that people go through all the crap associated with transitioning just for their own piece of mind - and afterwards they want to try as much as possible to live the life they could have had if they had been born in the correct (biologically speaking) body.

Bannasidhe · 20-07-2022 8:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119365022#Comment_119365022

Still waiting for that list of trans women athletes who have used this theoretical advantage you keep harping on about to win lots of medals and break lots of records.

Any chance you could prove this hypothesis of yours with evidence of it actually happening?

Until then - it's just an unproven theory.

Quantum Erasure · 20-07-2022 8:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119365858#Comment_119365858

b) No biological woman could ever possibly be a better athlete than a biological man

That's where you're STILL going wrong...

Bannasidhe · 20-07-2022 8:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119365537#Comment_119365537

Think you'll find my response got deleted along with your post that I was responding to was zapped.

Bannasidhe · 20-07-2022 8:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119365609#Comment_119365609

What - now you want a quota of how many people can transition.

Speaking of MMA

Biologically female 26 year old dies after cage fight with biologically female 34 yr old who was "bigger and stronger"

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/sep/06/family-of-woman-killed-in-cage-fight-express-mismatch-concerns-saeideh-aletaha#:~:text=Saeideh%20Aletaha%2C%20a%2026%2Dyear,bigger%20and%20stronger%20than%20Aletaha.

Another death after a biological female Vs Biological female fight

https://supersport.com/boxing/news/210903_Female_fighter_Zapata_dies_from_injuries_in_the_ring

There is a rather gory video on You Tube of the condition of biological female Kayle Harrison's opponent I won't share here. Harrison is in her 30s and is a former Olympian and world champion with 2 gold medals for judo. She moved into MMA in 2016.

Bannasidhe · 20-07-2022 8:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119365669#Comment_119365669

I'll tell you a story by way of illustrating what you think is my view on natural genetic advantages.

I have a son. By the age of 15 he was over 6 foot, naturally lean build, and left handed.

He was in high school in sports mad Australia. In his high school local clubs from all sports would coach the students in 6 week blocks - essentially being talent scouts and in return providing invaluable lessons.

In his time there I had cricket, ice hockey, tennis, Aussie Rules coaching staff come to my door begging me to 'let' them train him. I would have been delighted. Any one of them. Here was young man with proven natural abilities being offered several once in a life time chances to avail of the kind of facilities most in Ireland could only dream of...

In Ireland it was the show jumping crowd who watched him ride and mumbled about Olympics.

did my son become a sports star? Did he 'uck.

He was blessed with the mind of a gamer whose whole being came to life only in the glow of a computer screen. We still joke about what happened the poor fecker who had the mind of a top class athlete and the body of a hard core gamer.

Physical attributes are just one, albeit vital, part - there must also be the mental capacity. And then diet, training, money, support etc etc.

It takes a 'village' to produce an elite athlete. Very few have access to that (expensive) village and so never get to the top.

And even when they do - their location has a huge impact. Frankly most of our facilities in Ireland are inadequate. We have to export our best to train elsewhere. What about people from countries where that is not an option?

How is any of that 'fair'?

Personally, I think it sucks.

DontHitTheDitch · 20-07-2022 9:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119366006#Comment_119366006

Here's a simpler way to explain it. Humans are sexually dimorphic, there is a statistically stable difference in average build and strength between males and females. Within males, there is high variability, which makes competition so compelling. Within women, there is also high variability, which makes women's sports compelling. When you get to elite sports, there is a statistical difference between the average strength, size and agility between men and women, which makes direct competition between the sexes, in general, boringly predictable.

Wibbs · 20-07-2022 9:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364796#Comment_119364796

No-one tests men for oestrogen which builds muscle mass among other things - men's bodies do not require not 'verification'

They're not tested for oestrogen because its effect on building muscle mass is negligable. It maintains higher bone densities and muscle tissue in women and both drop after menopause when oestrogen production is very much reduced. Women on HRT maintain better bone and muscle densities and that's where this idea that oestrogen builds muscle comes from. That's without looking at other factors like human growth hormone that also drop off after menopause. So men wouldn't bother doping with oestrogen and dopers actually take steps to stop the male body from producing excess oestrogens ironically as a side effect of doping with testosterone because it's a negative on a few levels(it weakens tendons for a start). On the other hand you test women and indeed men for dubious testosterone levels, looking for added "help", precisely because it gives so many advantages in sport.

And sport is "policing men's bodies". You may have missed that with your feminist lens that seems to have the tendency to only focus in some directions. That's why elite male athletes are dope tested. Elite athletes of both sexes are among the most tested people on the planet(and among the best at beating said tests...). And they're not exactly going out of their way checking them for oestrogen or progesterone, save for where oddball levels of same in women athletes are a signifier of added help. Very basically they test men and women for added testosterone, growth hormone and blood cell/O2 transportation enhancements simply because these are strongly advantageous. All things which biological men have more of than biolgical women funny enough, because - and lord knows stating the obvious seems to be verboten - that's where biological males have a natural evolutionary advantage over women in most sports.

If a biological woman is expected to have testosterone limits within set parameters in order to compete then if a trans woman's testosterone is within those limits she should be allowed to compete.

Again you're ignoring the considerable effects of going through puberty as a biological male before transition. Or indeed the considerable effects of going through puberty as a biolgical female before transition in the case of FTM trans people. In the latter case, unless they're outside the averages, before transition they will be shorter, with more fat tissue, less muscle, smaller in lung, narrower in shoulder and wider in hip. Even so adding in testosterone and blocking the levels of female hormones in FTM folks after going through a biological female puberty seems to have the stronger effect in that they tend to "pass" more easily as their gender than MTF folks.

I would imagine mainly because testosterone is in very basic terms an "adder" rather than a "subtractor". It adds bone and height and muscle and body hair etc. Now cutting off the supply will reduce muscle and bodyhair, but bone and height remain. Modern Humans over evolutionary time have become more neotonous. That is we retain more juvenile physical(and mental) characteristics throughout life. However women retain more juvenile physical features than men, particularly in the face and skull(some have suggested this means women are more naturally evolved than men. A point I would find hard to argue in some ways 😁). Indeed while beauty standards vary throughout history and culture and vary far more for women(which is a fascinating subject of its own as to why), one consistent feature that doesn't vary nearly so much is neotony in women = attractive*. IE smaller of frame, and bigger foreheads, smaller noses, smaller chins, smaller faces etc. More gracile overall. These things also impact sport in particular.

*interestingly and where we have another difference is neotony in men as an attractive feature comes and goes in history and culture as a positive/negative, often enough co-existing with less neotony as a positive. In our own culture you can have the more neotonous "boy band" look and the less neotonous "he man" look both being celebrated or derided in different ways by different viewers.

Bannasidhe · 20-07-2022 9:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119366043#Comment_119366043

That has absolutely nothing to do with the post you quoted as far as I can see.

Wibbs · 20-07-2022 9:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119365238#Comment_119365238

If being female was shown to be an advantage in a sport, then it would be tested for in the men's competition.

Bingo. That's the sound of a nail being hit by a hammer squarely on the head. All the doping tests look for "enhancements" of hormones and biological advantages that are massively reduced in biological women.

Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

Comments

Background