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All Blacks v Ireland part III - July 16 8.05am Ireland time

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    This is part of the problem. Oh it was accidental, there’s nothing you can do about it.

    BS

    There absolutely are things that can be done. Players tackling upright is something that can change. They can get lower. They should be getting lower. Tackling a ball carrier while standing fully upright is a habit that can be broken. You’ll never be able to get rid of it fully but you can reduce instances of it.

    Paying some bloody attention to the ruck before you launch yourself head and shoulders into it is another habit that can be developed.

    Saying it’s accidental and nothing can be done is nothing short of a lazy cop out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Leinster v Wasps in 2017 IIRC

    Willie Le Roux dropped the ball while diving unchallenged over the line



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭TheRona


    It's not a cop out at all. There are plenty of things that happen in rugby that are accidental, or have no malice, or are due to mistiming in a dynamic situation. You're confusing this with examples of deliberate actions, which are punished anyway.

    Despite the crackdown in many aspects of the game in recent years, concussion rates are at an all time high. If there was evidence to suggest that 20 minute red cards did not have an negative impact on player welfare, would people care? I suspect not.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    WR could start by removing the reward (scrum) for tackling a player upright and holding him there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,847 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    The red card from the second test wasn't accidental though, it was regrettable certainly, and I'm sure the player involved wishes he hadn't been sent off for making the mistake of tackling so high. He deserved a red card for causing the head clash due to his negligent tackle technique, and hopefully he will learn how to take more care to slow down enough to ensure when he makes a tackle that he has allowed enough time to get his tackle height down lower to an appropriate height to avoid getting carded.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,729 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    But the cost to the other team is uneven too. If I do a late hit and take out Johnny Sexton in the 1st minute of the game, I can be replaced by another player after 20 mins, but Johnny is out for the entire game....

    If I take out Johnny at the 60th minute, he's only been removed from the final quarter of the game

    A red card offense is the most severe punishment available in a game of rugby. It needs to punish both the player, and his team, because otherwise it incentivises tactics where the key player from another team can be deliberately injured

    In the business end of a tournament, the only punishment that counts is on the pitch, citing the player or banning them afterwards is meaningless, for example, Porter will get a 2-3 game suspension which will be for games that he wasn't going to be selected for anyway as he will be rested at the start of next season to make up for his extended season with Ireland



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Porter won't get any suspension as his case was dismissed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 105 ✭✭joedamuss


    Red cards should be for blatant foul or dirty play, accidental rugby collisions which do happen where there is mitigation should be yellow, a citing can then be carried out as happened in Porters case. A little bit of common sense is needed as was shown by Barnes on Saturday.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,729 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    looking at that injury list there are way too many 'Concussion - indefinite' injuries



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,533 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    There are plenty of things that happen in rugby that are accidental, or have no malice, or are due to mistiming in a dynamic situation. 

    And the referees have plenty of scope to look at those mitigating factors and decide on the level of sanction.

    The rules don't need to change, player behaviour does.

    Concussions are at an all time high because players are bigger and stronger than ever and there are more games than ever.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    I thought is was also interesting that there seemed to be multiple different descriptions for the same thing - Concussion.

    Some guys were listed as unavailable for "Head knock" , others for "HIA" and then a few where it actually said "Concussion"

    Why the equivocation?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,729 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I'm guessing a Head Knock is where they have a minor head injury that is not deemed to be a concussion and they'll be back after a week or so, a HIA is where they're still assessing the injury to see if it's concussion or not, or if they're on the return to play protocols, while concussion is the most severe of the three where there is persistent concussion symptoms and the player has failed the assessments in the return to play protocols and so they cannot give any estimate of when they might recover

    Some of these guys may never play again, and others will play again who probably shouldn't



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Tinsley Stocky Textile


    Porter didn't mean to belt Retallick in the face, and the NZ prop didn't mean to take out Ringrose as he did, but in both cases the tackler should not have been upright. That's the behaviour that needs to change. I think we got very lucky with Porter not getting sent off or banned. He's broken Retallick's cheekbone as far as I know, it was clearly a dangerous tackle.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Retallick is what, 7 inches taller

    Porter was passive, Retallick ducked down



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Surely the height discrepancy makes it look even worse for Porter, not better? Porter was fully upright and still should have bent his knees to make the hit lower.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,770 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    The simple fact is, there's no such thing as minor brain trauma, and it's cumulative. The game is inherently unsafe, and at a certain point that will have to be acknowledged. Likelihood some kind of recognition and baseline compensation established, along with a liability wavier.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    They’re doing the right think now with age group rugby. Tackling below the waist only until 15 and below chest after that. If that had been brought in ten years ago we wouldn’t be having these problems now. It’s asking a lot for senior players now to change how they play in the heat of the moment. Best we can do it try to minimise bad tackling through red cards. In a few years tackling techniques will have improved. How that changes the overall physicality or the end product remains to be seen I guess

    IRB has been horribly behind the curve as the power and strength of players has increased



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I fundamentally don't believe that the players are making mistakes and tackling too high. It's a deliberate and calculated gamble they take. The players are too good to assume that they are making errors with this degree of frequency. Other rule changes are adapted to much more swiftly.

    I'm not saying in each and every case, and obviously they don't mean to get themselves hurt as well, but the reality is that the tackle height is the way it is because players tackle high to prevent the offload.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    It absolutely is a cop out. Accidents can happen through bad technique. That can be corrected. I mean this isn’t complicated.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    I’d agree with that. Anything they can do to incentivise tackling lower the better.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    He should have, but as the directives have called out the officials need to look at a number of factors. That Porter was stationary and Ta’avao was running into the tackle is a pretty big difference.

    There are a lot of scenarios that the laws and directives need to cover, e.g. a tackler never moved toward the ball carrier and was unable to get low or get out of the way before the hit. We don’t want things getting too complicated (like the whole NZ should have been down to 12 men thing) because that’s just messy and ridiculous.

    So it’s a tough one to have laws and directives that will be spot on 100% of the time. And we just have to accept that. If perfection is the bar then we’ll be forever disappointed.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Would anyone accept banning offloads before the player is taken to the ground? It would take out one of the best aspects of the game but also remove incentives to tackle high.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,521 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    That's very interesting. It would remove one of the incentives to tackle high.

    But a dominant hit chest high is key to knocking the ball carrier back behind gainline, improving opportunity for a turnover or at least slow the ball down. As well as having an energising effect on the defending team. So there would remain ample motivation to hit high I reckon.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    If you hit the centre of gravity you have a better chance of lifting the player backwards rather than knocking them while still maintaining a solid wrapping motion. Very hard to offload when you're not planted on the ground too.



  • Subscribers Posts: 42,004 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    god no, you dont ban the action of the player thats fouled in order to remove the foul. Thats complete "victim blaming" to rob a common phrase. And anyway, offloading in or through contact is one of the great selling points of the game. its what made players like SBW so marketable.

    it also doesnt remove the more frequent problem of head trauma incidents caused by players tackling low. How often do you see two players tackle a carrier waist high and end up clashing heads, or a player getting their head on the wrong side and getting sparked out, or a player getting a knee or hip to teh head and also coming out the worst of it.

    High tackles which end up in a high degree of force and danger to the ball carrier are invariably the fault of the tackler. Tackle lower


    we need to get back to the idea that off loading is a key aspect to the game that should be encouraged, and actions to stop it should be discouraged (upright wrap tackles)

    look at this classic french try from 1995


    No sign of a high upright tackle in this passage of play, and the result is a great try with 2 off loads in contact and 1 before the tackle. Thats what we need to bring back, and we do it by removing the upright tackle... which we are about 50% on the way to doing in my opinion. it just needs stronger direction from world rugby ('below shoulder' tackling only should be enforced) and ball carriers should be encouraged not to elicit contact but to run for space instead.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    God no. We should be about 'attacking spaces not faces' when playing rugby and stopping offloading before player goes to ground means far more tackle/rucks. a slower game. more collisions and more potential injuries. a slower game when all changes to the laws should be about creating a more open game while ensuring a fair contest is kept.

    Stopping offloads before the player is taken to ground wouldnt remove any incentive to tackle high. You tackle higher to prevent the ball coming back as fast. even if the ball carrier doesnt attempt to offload before going to ground.

    and what syd says...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,880 ✭✭✭Captain_Crash


    It’s important to note that the long term effects suffered by ex-players from multiple impacts is a result of non stop contact in training and not so much match day incidents!

    It’s not unusual for a player to have more impacts on the head on 30 mins in a Tuesday morning in a contact session than they would in a game! And they’ll have those sessions a few times a week. Add in the longer seasons (11 months for some players these days) and you have an awful lot of non match day collisions that will add up. Infact I’d imagine the number of match day head injuries are negligible in the grand scheme of things compared to training related incidents!

    Also remember you don’t need head contact to cause a head injury, the whip of the neck snapping the head forward in contact causes brain trauma also! (Think Lawes on Plisson, perfectly legal even today but prob worse than Porters or Ta’avo tackles head wise)



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That used to be the case, but not sure it is any more. I read a ‘week in the life’ of Leicester recently, under Steve Borthwick, and there is very little, sometimes no, full contact now outside of match days. Back in their glory days, they made a big deal of the intensity of their training

    the guys coming out with life changing health issues now would have trained in a much more physically intense way



  • Registered Users Posts: 20 FairPOV


    There is no time to adjust to drop your head ….in some cases It all happens in a split second… hence accidental



  • Registered Users Posts: 20 FairPOV


    Barnes was wrong.. it was exactly the same collision as the second test… exactly… should have been a red and it would have possibly changed the result



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭rodge123




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,880 ✭✭✭Captain_Crash


    Best tell the citing commission that considering they ruled the yellow was correct and no further action was required.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Then you don’t attempt the tackle if you’re not in a position to do so.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20 FairPOV


    Just aside why is world rugby run out of England full of old POMS who are stuck in the past on huge salaries doing nothing about red cards and everything else that’s ruining our game. I think you guys would do a better job with a few pints of Guinness as payment.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,772 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    World Rugby is run out of Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭TheRona


    Very hard for a player to go against a natural reaction.

    If you look at the two most obvious examples:

    Ta'Avao - doesn't attempt the tackle, avoids hurting himself, doesn't hurt Ringrose. Nothing comes of the play anyway as there's plenty of cover and Ringrose running laterally.

    Porter - doesn't attempt the tackle. clean line break, Ireland in trouble?



  • Subscribers Posts: 42,004 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    ... is world rugby run out of England

    ??


    if youre gonna rant, at least get your starting point correct



  • Registered Users Posts: 20 FairPOV


    Well tell them to sort out this bloody red card problem then.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20 FairPOV


    BTW congratulations on getting World rugby in Dublin…(even if it did happen years ago) and yes I’ll check the facts before a rant in future….to be sure to be sure.

    Post edited by FairPOV on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Those reactions were coached into players. They can be coached out of them.

    Retalick wouldn’t have got much further. Even if Porter stood aside and gave a soft shoulder. It would have slowed Retalick enough for Furlong to tackle him. If it was a case of Ireland being in trouble. I think that’s a better outcome than a fractured cheekbone.

    In Ta’Avao’s case he stepped up and into the tackle, that’s a reaction in itself. A split second decision which needs to me made the other way.

    Players will get it wrong, that’s for sure but removing the consequences of getting it wrong. Or softening them, will only encourage players to get it wrong more often.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20 FairPOV


    What are you going to do when you win the RWC next year…. Full it with Guinness?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,733 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    N.Z fans and media are up in arms over the series. You'd swear they have a right to be the best. It's sport! Like every sport, there's purple patches and lows. Look at Barca or Man U! Like every other generation, there's bound to be teams improving and evolving, it's natural.

    We piss n moan ourselves and so do most nations. I would not say that Ireland are brilliant. I'd say that N.Z are average and we're going to learn more next month. Sports are competitive and there's nothing guaranteed. Referees are poor (imo) and results could vary on the appointment of a referee.

    The idea that the Porter incident decided the series is just rugby. If the decision had gone the other way, maybe the result changes. Maybe not! Over 3 test matches, Ireland were clearly the better team!



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ Trey Raspy Crossbones


    As long as there is an incentive to tackle high (prevent offload, strip the ball, hold the ball carrier up) , there are going to be red cards. I'd imagine that the number of upright tackles that end in a red card is a tiny fraction of tackles that end in another way.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20 FairPOV


    @Dubinusa….Ireland were clearly the better team in the first test after being thrashed by 42 points????



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    ‘Best over three tests’ doesn’t mean ‘best in all three tests’. Fact is Ireland, over the series, player more of the better rugby and deserved to win, as acknowledged by NZ commentators after the third test



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    For all but the ~20 minutes or so when NZ scored 4 tries , yes.

    NZ won the game from a brilliant purple patch , not by dominating the game end to end and all credit to them for that - It was enough to win the game that day and is enough to win games against all but the very best teams.

    But at no stage over the three games did New Zealand exert any real "control" over the game in terms of possession or territory, whereas Ireland did for long periods of the 1st test and for almost all of the other 2 games.

    Ireland learned from their mistakes , adjusted their defensive system and prevented NZ getting those same opportunities again.

    NZ didn't adjust to Ireland at all over the 3 games and that's down to poor preparation and an apparent lack of autonomy from the players who should be experienced enough to make changes on the fly during games,



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,733 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Yes! Possession, territory and time spent in opposition 22. Ireland had a very poor spell in 1 test!



  • Subscribers Posts: 42,004 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Again, facts make a good starting point for an argument.

    New Zealand won by 23 points, not 42



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭TheRona


    That's not what I'm seeing from NZ fans and media. They're more disappointed with the coaching and players, while praising how Ireland played.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭TheRona


    How often do NZ dominate games these days? They almost always have purple patches, and score from broken play.

    Ireland can absolutely dominate NZ and only win by 10 points, if NZ dominate a game they will end up winning to 20-30. I don't think things have changed much in that regard.



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