Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Ireland in a Federal Europe and the end of National Vetoes

Options
2»

Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So basically NATO without the US, UK, Canada and Turkey but with Ireland, Austria and Malta?



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,992 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    We should be in NATO too by the way but that's another story.

    An EU wide centralized foreign policy isnt necessarily the same as an EU army, not that I'd be opposed to either. We are essentially the baby with the candy, if anyone even sends 10 men to attack the country our candy is easily taken.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Thats what NATO is for and its a damn sight more effective than some military grouping that would be run by france, germany and italy, on their current performance



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,992 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Well we're not in either right now and we should be in both.

    What are we going to do to defend ourselves, tell sergeant john to put down his cup of tea and toy guns to mount a ten man defence ? We have no army, we have no navy, we still rely on UK radar and anti aircraft tech. We are a laughing stock.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Who knew that Brussels could mandate gas rationing? 😂



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 5,693 ✭✭✭brickster69


    Never going to happen this EU army thing. It will take them 10 years to decide on what language to speak.

    If a conflict started with the EU army and Russia they would still be funding the other sides war machine to kill it's own soldiers and bomb it's own citizens.

    “The earth is littered with the ruins of empires that believed they were eternal.”

    - Camille Paglia



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,998 ✭✭✭conorhal


    If the war in Ukraine has proved anything, it's that Russia are a paper tiger that can't beat a third world nation let alone take on a first world power armed to the teeth with next gen weaponry. As for China, like the oligarchs of Russia, they are more interested in buying you than invading you. Our real problem in that regard is the willingness of our governments, universities and 'businessmen' to sell our asses to them, that's your real threat right there about which few are complaining (can we kick the ‘Confucius Institute money out of our colleges please, no?).

    I have no interest in seeing Irish kids die in a field in Flanders because some arch-duke in Bosnia gets shot and it causes a squabble between 3 cousins that rule empires. That's where such treaties get you, dragged into the business of others that happens to be none of yours, fighting for interests that are probably counter to yours.

    Recently I had a good friend shrieking "the Russians are going to nuke us!" in my face, all on account of my general disinterest in this war. All because of a Russian TV station’s animation, that was so laughable that Iraq's 'Comical Ali' would have been embarrassed by that bit of bald faced propaganda. Never-the-less, the media managed to whip said friend into such a frenzy over nothing that I seriously thought he might stroke out. This is nothing but fear mongering and propaganda to allow the EU to further consolidate power in their own hands. The very epitome of 'never wase a good crisis' and to make the 1% richer (the 2008 recession/Covid) and the unaccountable , more powerful and less accountable.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    By July 26, when EU energy ministers are expected to rubber-stamp the new rules

    Somewhat bizarre and deliberately misleading way of framing "when all the member states agree to it"



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,893 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    So you identify China as a hostile foreign adversary and, because you have a gullible friend, you wish to return Europe to it's precious state of squabbling powers which would be vulnerable to exploitation by China and other hostile powers.

    Curious.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Those squabbling nations that created the modern world. Turns out that competition is important.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 12,482 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    Yeah it kinda took an internal war in the 1860s to cement that relationship.

    Neutrality would be possible if taken seriously like a country such a Switzerland which has impressive military units and infrastructure.

    All Eyes On Rafah



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,893 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I don't think Switzerland is a great example of very much. Invading the place means essentially cutting through a large chunk of NATO units first and then you've the horrible terrain that helped it stay neutral in world war 2.

    No disrespect to the Swiss of course.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,482 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    That horrible terrain as you call it has built in bunkers and aircraft caverns bridges and mountainsides wired with explosives and high tech gear like the upcoming F-35. And historically before NATO they were neutral and playing off very aggressive regimes with a very robust defence system. Huge gun ownership amongst the general pop without mass shootings.

    If Ireland wants to take neutrality seriously, it should look at the Switzerland model.

    All Eyes On Rafah



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,893 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Invading mountains and navigating them wrt supply lines are logistical nightmares. It's surrounded by NATO member states with no direct access to the sea.

    There's nothing for Ireland to learn from the Swiss about neutrality. Irish neutrality is nearly a century old. We're doing fine.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,992 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    But that sounds like you're going on about conscription? Why would there be conscription? People who want to fight can go fight and those who wouldnt can not. We gain a defense force (which we currently have nothing) and lose nothing.

    The older I get, the more in favor of a federalized EU I'm getting. The half in half out approach simply doesnt work.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The "I'm alright Jack" approach that only works until there's a problem.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,893 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Been fine for a century, survived Churchill's threat to invade but I'm sure Ireland's clandestine enemy will show his hand any day now.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,998 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Old men sending young men to die in pointless wars to satisfy their imperial ambitions. Same as it ever was.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,992 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Yet again, there is no conscription and joining the military would be voluntary as it is now. Dont like it dont join.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭bad2thebone


    Well groomed cleancut foreigner's trying to push their agendas on folk always backfired.

    Happened throughout history,and if you equate the past with the present it's not hard to see the pattern.

    Weak men trying to prop themselves up and going senile in there old age.

    In the big scheme of things it doesn't bother me, but when will we progress and evolve into a more peaceful species.

    The Roman army metaphorically fucked itself out of existence,and we're not far off again by the looks of it.

    Lust is a powerful character defect, it drives men mad....



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 6,998 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Who's talking about conscription, other than you that is? Typical strawmanning.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,992 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Its not a strawman, it's a reaction to you implying people will be forced to be sent to war.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,998 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Where do you think abandoning neutrality and entering a mutual defence pact while surrendering your veto on sovereign control over foreign and security policy (as per Mr Scholz recommendation) to a bunch of militaristic hawks gets you other than being forced into other people’s wars?

    I know independent critical thinking is a bit of a struggle for your average Irishman these days, since we can’t seem to make a decision without first asking mummy EU and daddy NATO what it thinks first, but clearly joined up thinking isn't your strong suit.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,512 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    The premise of Schotz' comments are faulty.

    For there to be a veto on foreign policy it implies that one country can hold the EU back.

    Lets say, for instance, that following a series of events in Iceland, there were growing calls for the EU to invade it. But say Malta is against the proposal. If Malta had a veto, it would mean that France, Germany etc would be powerless to invade. But that is not the case.

    Instead, what would happen is that the EU countries other than Malta would coordinate together and would do so under another name, such as the "coalition of the willing" was used when there was no NATO unanimity.

    Likewise, if it is a diplomatic as opposed to military measure, the difference between the whole EU taking measures as one vs all EU memberstates less Malta taking those same measures individually is marginal. The EU is not powerful in its own right, but as a sum of its parts.

    Of course, in reality what Scholtz is really complaining about is a lack of unanimous sanctions where one EU country blocks it. This is tricky where it could threaten the single market. However, we have seen that through the EUs process of consensus sanctions can still be imposed.

    The reality too is that different EU memberstates have very different political objectives. Ireland is much more US focussed than France. France wants to be an international military power whereas Germany is content to have the most minimal military for defence only. Sweden enjoys its position as diplomatically and militarily neutral. Italy doesnt care about Eastern Europes problems, and Poland doesnt care about the mediterranian's problems.

    Whenever something comes along that has near unanimity in the EU its great. But equally where there is no unanimity it isnt because we lack the mechanisms for it, but because there are genuinely different strategic interests at play.

    So in summary its great where things are - some or all EU memberstates can act together when it suits them. But they cant force reluctant or opposed member states to join them. Instead, soft power influence must be used to try to achieve greater unanimity, but it wont always be the case.

    I.e. we have a good system that does not need to be changed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9 Mr. Karate II


    "BERLIN: The European Union can no longer afford to keep national vetoes when deciding on European Union foreign and security policy"


    Remember kids. Trump was the dictator. This is Democracy at it's finest.



Advertisement