Sophie: A Murder in West Cork - Netflix.

OwlsZat · 22-07-2022 8:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119370642#Comment_119370642

If she was already dead nobody would be dragging her dead body through briars. More like run as fast as you could away. That's why I liked the suggestion of her watching to catch someone at something. It's as if she only expected to be out watching whoever it was briefly and undetected ie., the nightdress and the laced boots. You'd also have to wonder why she wouldn't flee towards Alphie's rather down the field briars and all.

I also can't square how she has a clump of her own hair in her hands. How does that happen? Trying to grab the attacker's hair and accidentally grabbing your own? very odd

jimwallace197 · 22-07-2022 9:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119374143#Comment_119374143

Ireland was very anti English back then & not surprisingly either with everything that was going on in the north. Its a prime example of where a suspect who's a fish out of water & fits the crime (alcoholic & domestic violence issues) is the prime target for the gards. But when you start to scratch underneath the surface a little bit, none of it adds up. People complain about Bailey attracting attention etc but if he didnt he wouldnt have the support of the public that he does now.

This case is a prime example of where the police buy into a theory about someone & then try to build the narrative around that person being the perpetrator. Tunnel vision I believe its called. If half of the resources that were put into making Bailey the perpetrator were put into finding the real killer, this case might have been solved along time ago. I wouldnt be one bit surprised if they didnt want to find out who really did it back then. That would make alot more sense than Bailey.

chooseusername · 22-07-2022 9:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119374533#Comment_119374533

About the hair, if she was being pulled back from the briars and barbed wire by the hair, her instinctive reaction would be to catch her own hair between her scalp and her assailants hands to relieve the pain .

The fact she didn't attempt to flee towards Alfie's was maybe because she left the house and either went down to the gate to confront someone, or she chased someone down towards the gate and when she caught up with them the assault took place.

tinytobe · 22-07-2022 9:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119374635#Comment_119374635

That anti-English doesn't surprise me, a look at the history is the answer to that one and current British politics regarding Brexit will only refuel this. However the whole thing was also made to make the Irish look incompetent, especially when looking at their police force and how the investigation was handled. Suppose this murder happened in the UK, it would have been handled more professionally, sadly as it is to say in an Irish forum.

Also, being a narcissist, being psychotic, being self centered, looking for attention, going out for late night walks like to Kalfadda bridge or to wherever, having bruises and cuts on your hands and arms simply doesn't make you a killer, and things simply don't get more serious if witnesses are coerced for false statements or drugs are offered to drifters to get close to Bailey for whatever information....... This very idea gives you an insight into the incompetence of the Guards, at least back then, - I'd say, the speculative likelihood that the Guards were all or somewhat involved and the criminals here, and not Bailey are way way higher...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119374533#Comment_119374533

It's another riddle where we don't know the answer to. That clump of her own hair in her hands often leads me to believe that the whole crime scene was staged and fabricated in some way shape or form. Yes, the Guards were incompetent in this case, but I hardly believe they took Sophie's hair and placed in her own hands, that's a bit hard to believe, so only the other option of staging the crime scene would be the answer to that, same as putting the body at a different location as opposed to leaving her where she was really murdered. That cavity brick was from near the gates, the killer could have bashed her head in even more, after her death, but that stone could have been from somewhere else, and placed there.

22-07-2022 10:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119373696#Comment_119373696

what exactly the Gardai did to preserve the scene during the lengthy delay before,firstly, John Harrison and then the forensics boys arrived from Dublin

The forensic boys were there before John HARBISON.

22-07-2022 10:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119374492#Comment_119374492

I think, apart from being a narcissist, he is delusional, psychotic and possibly insane.

and a woman abusing thug as well

22-07-2022 10:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119374409#Comment_119374409

if he had not offered give a blood sample he would have been regarded with suspicion to a greater degree than he already had been, incriminating himself

The gardai would have taken iblood anyway he probably knew that being a journalist. Immediately offering blood makes him look more innocent

OwlsZat · 22-07-2022 11:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119374760#Comment_119374760

The staging and cleaning of the crimescene are theories that don't really carry much weight. I mean she was finished off with a concrete block. This wasn't a well-planned out murder. I like @chooseusername explanation for the hair being in her hands and it makes a bit of sense.

I think the two theories that carry the most weight are

1) She was being discrete/hiding and observed something or someone she didn't like and confronted them.

Could explain the missing hatchet, did she take it for protection?

2) She had a visitor who she was familiar with and was comfortable enough to head outside/to the gate in a nightgown to let them in/tell them to go away.

Could explain the random expensive French wine. Maybe she wasn't the only one who traveled from France. Suppose this is the current line of investigation.

tinytobe · 22-07-2022 11:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119375149#Comment_119375149

Yes, I found that explanation of the hair also plausible. However, this scenario would not have been something quiet, - thus even more surprising that Alfie and Shirley never heard anything at all.

I also find it likely or more likely that she answered the door to somebody she knew, and if not knew, at least expected. Somebody she knew if it was midnight, or 1am or 2am, somebody she expected, maybe at 7am or so....

OwlsZat · 23-07-2022 12:13am

But who would be up to answer the door at 7am close to Christmas? Also, why bother lacing the boots if you only opened the door to someone you knew?The lacing of the boots suggests expecting only to be outside briefly, or being discreet and not expecting to meet anyone. I'd lean towards the latter.

Jim S made a bit of a point of her blood is on the door, so it looked like the attacker had her blood him and returned to the house. Was this to pick back up the bottle of wine having been rejected, or were they looking for something else altogether?

tinytobe · 23-07-2022 12:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119375260#Comment_119375260

Sophie was travelling. The intention was to look after her house, have some work done, etc... I'd say, if she answered the door at 7am it was something pre-arranged, - or at least more likely than at midnight to 3am at night..... But that's speculation as well.

Yes, the blood stain on the door leads us to believe the killer returned to the house, for whatever reason. Or she was attacked and injured at her door and then ran to the gates, her killer then catching up with her. However that would hardly have been a quiet event, remember Alfie and Shirley stated hearing nothing, if they were telling the truth....

chooseusername · 23-07-2022 7:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119375260#Comment_119375260

About the boots, Ungerer said she wore brown suede hiking boots on Sunday, probably the ones she was found in next morning.

She always used the front door when entering or leaving the house according to Josie Hellen.

On returning from her walk and visits on Sunday evening she would kicked off the boots in the front porch or just inside the door into the living room. If she came down from upstairs to go out, the nearest door is the front door and it made more sense to leave by this door rather than going back through the sitting room, kitchen and back kitchen to the back door and end up at the back of the house. The hiking boots were as she left them and she pulled them on without socks as she found them, laced up. The photo below " boots" shows her bare feet pushed down into the boots with the tongue of the boot pushed down suggesting they were put on in a hurry and the knot of the left boot looks like it hadn't been undone for some time; John Harbison reported; "“I pulled off the left boot without untying its somewhat strangely located bow knot. The bow was located on the outer side between the lst and 2nd lace holes”.

The photos taken at the foot of the stairs shows 2 other pairs of what appear "town" boots/ shoes (photo "shoes" below). She would have had to step past these to put on the hiking boots suggesting she intended leaving the house, perhaps to go to the gate area via the front lawn or the laneway.

So as I see it Sophie dressed to leave the house and go outside, not just to go downstairs to answer a knock on the door.

boots.jpg

shoes.jpg

OwlsZat · 23-07-2022 9:10am

Great post. Also seems it might have been done in a hurry? Who could she have seen?

chooseusername · 23-07-2022 10:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119375670#Comment_119375670

“Who could she have seen?”

I would say whoever it was, was no stranger to the area.

In fact I would go so far as to say it was someone whose presence around the gate area and maybe even the house could be explained away. So not Bailey and I don’t think Alfie was involved either.

flanna01 · 23-07-2022 10:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119375670#Comment_119375670

It is indeed a note worthy post..

So, my understanding is that, the new machine we borrowed has the capability of extracting dna from deep within rocks and stones (and obviously man made blocks etc..). This is such a leap in technology since the 90's... Truly amazing.

So, following on from the post displaying the photo's of the boots...

There's quite a substantial splash of blood on one of Sophie's boots.. It's already been deemed as ''DNA from an Unknown Male''

Surely this has to be the most critical piece of evidence to date?

I recall reading somewhere years ago, that there wasn't enough of a blood sample to create any leads worth following..??

A few things strike me here:

1) If they can now extract DNA from the fissures of rocks, surely this blood splash is akin to a City blood bank?

2) They had enough material to deem the blood splash was from a male, that sounds like a lot of material to me?

3) You often see the forensic guys pin pointing blood splatters under a UV lamp, swabbing the speckle of blood and taking it away for analysis..They can also find traces of blood from baths that have been washed down after the crime.... The blood on Sophie's boot looks like a resevoir in comparison..?

4) Maybe this is the sample that has finally born fruit? We just assume it's the new gizzmo collecting DNA from the rock, maybe the machine was used on Sophie's boot?

5) However they got their sample, or wherever it came from (after 25yrs), they duly saddled up and headed to France...

6) Although not absolute... The one splash of male blood on Sophie's boot, has to be high on the list, if only to eliminate a suspect.

7) Can blood be aged? Was the blood drop from before Sophie was murdered? Who's is it? How did it get there? Would a lady not have wiped the blood off her boot if seen?

8) Can a blood drop determine a Male's Nationality..? I assume an Irishman and a African man have different blood strains (minute differences detectable by laboratory technicians)?

9) Interesting the investigation team headed to France, and not down South to Schull..

23-07-2022 11:55am

It wasn't blood on the boot. Whitish material possible skin cells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119375887#Comment_119375887

tinytobe · 23-07-2022 12:12pm

Is it known by when this trip to France is to give us any answers?

I mean taking a DNA sample and comparing it with a suspect doesn't take months. However in this case it seems to be months, rather than weeks.

chooseusername · 23-07-2022 12:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119376217#Comment_119376217

The red circle in the photo in post 1603 contained male DNA but not Baileys.

The blood indicated by the knife could not be grouped at the time of testing.

tinytobe · 23-07-2022 12:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119375887#Comment_119375887

The question is how easily this can be contested by the defence in a court of law?

A cavity block, outside, accessible to anybody, anybody going by could have touched it, - same for a stone in that driveway.

The accused could easily say, he's been at the property several times before the murder, even admit to touching the stone and the cavity block, injuring himself whilst placing it there, as it was unexpectedly heavy or had some sharp edges somewhere. Could have been anybody, a contractor, a visitor to Alfie and Shirley, as well as Sophie. The problem here is that both the stone and the cavity block were accessible to virtually anybody, it wasn't a knife or a firearm belonging to somebody specific.

The same could easily go for the blood stain on Sophie's boots. The accused could easily argue having been at Sophie's house, done some repairs, injured himself, Sophie helped him take care of the wounds and some of his blood was dropped on her boots and she never noticed it. Or even, this happened in France before her trip, not in Ireland and she never noticed the stain. The prosecution would maybe have success if they could prove that this blood stain is exactly from the time of say, midnight to 8 am in the morning, and that's probably impossible to date at this point.

In my experience they need more on the killer, and evidence which can't be explained other than murder. The murderer's DNA on Sophie's body, on her scratches, the murderers DNA under her fingernails, something closely connected to the murderer on the victim's body.

It's probably hard to get a conviction more than 25 years later.

The trip to France by the Guards will probably only confirm that this Frenchmen has been to the cottage at some point in his life, he may admit a secret affair with Sophie, but it's not going to be enough for a conviction and that in the best case scenario.

23-07-2022 1:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119376434#Comment_119376434

There was no blood on the boot. If you still don't know that give up Listen to west cork.it was a whitish substance possible skin cell

23-07-2022 1:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119376438#Comment_119376438

There was no blood on the boots it was a whitish substance like possible skin cells

All your conspiracy and you even don't know the basics . putting out incorrect information

From west cork podcast

'In 2011 a French forensic scientist travelled to West Cork, at the invitation of An Garda Siochana, to take fresh samples from objects recovered from the crime scene... She took samples back to France and ran tests. All the blood tests showed only a female DNA profile, just as all the other UK and Irish tests had done over the years.

But on a single sample - a swab of a whitish trace near the laces on Sophie’s left boot, they found something else. The DNA profile of an unknown male. "

Whitish trace

tinytobe · 23-07-2022 1:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119376571#Comment_119376571

Blood or skin cell, it doesn't matter. It would still be hard to get a conviction. The accused could even admit to it being there, it got there in France, prior to her departure to Ireland.

Massive Berevement · 23-07-2022 1:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119373696#Comment_119373696

Blood and saliva wouldn't have washed away as the weather was dry and clear. You're alluding to Bailey having done it and with the time taken for the pathologist to get there his DNA dissapeared. But why then did DNA from a different male, not Bailey, remain on her boot from an earlier interaction when all his DNA from the most recent interaction of all "washed away"?

flanna01 · 23-07-2022 1:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119376438#Comment_119376438

This is probably everything in a nutshell.

Even if the sample was matched to a French National, doesn't mean he is categorically the killer.

Even if he was never known to have ventured to Ireland, he could pull the secret lover card... Wouldn't remember too much about the settings, or cottage lay out either... Had his mind on other things etc...

And..... How fast would the French Government be to oust one of their own, especially after their judicial system had tried and convicted another man for the murder....??

There are brick walls at every turn in this case.

23-07-2022 1:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119376600#Comment_119376600

If you think it doesn't matter whether you say blood or skin cells don't ever go to court.youd be laughed out of it.

I'm out of this full of conspiracy nonsense from people who do not even know the basics facts. Some investigators who see no difference between blood and whitish cells.

Massive Berevement · 23-07-2022 1:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119376621#Comment_119376621

It would be significant depending on what object the sample was taken from. DNA on a publically accessable cavity block can be explained away far easier than the boots. I'd like to know if the boots were purchased and kept in Ireland or if they were an item that was in her case coming over from France. It becomes very interesting if you are a French national who has stated never to have been to Ireland or her property yet your DNA was found on a pair of her boots that have never left her cottage.

tinytobe · 23-07-2022 1:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119376621#Comment_119376621

I often think that the French judiciary will be too proud to accept they've made a mistake, especially if it comes from another country. Apart from that, this conviction in France is a laughing matter anyway or a tragedy depending on the point of view.

What I've always wondered is why Bailey never tried to overturn this conviction in the EU supreme court? Probably it was a financial/money matter for him?

I doubt very much that the EU supreme court would accept a murder conviction, with absolutely no evidence connecting murderer to weapon and to victim.

chooseusername · 23-07-2022 2:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119376605#Comment_119376605

" But why then did DNA from a different male, not Bailey, remain on her boot from an earlier interaction "

The male DNA on the boot may not have come from a previous interaction, we know how badly the site was managed.

And were all possible sources of contamination eliminated eg, the Gardai at the scene, the priest, the doctor, the undertakers,

John Harbison etc. ?

chooseusername · 23-07-2022 4:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119376571#Comment_119376571

I understood the mark indicated on the boot by Harbisson's knife was blood, but could not be profiled.

I stand to be corrected.

flanna01 · 23-07-2022 6:50pm

Need to remember on here...

Most of us are not forensic detectives, murder investigators, or local residents of where the murder was committed.

We all know the general time line of what occurred, and I find that most posters on here are able to speculate intelligently on the missing pieces to some extent.

Every theory is speculation - Nobody knows (not on here anyway)

There are plenty more miles on this thread to go yet, we haven't heard what the outcome in France is yet...

Cool the jets a little, this thread is going to become interesting..

Sophie: A Murder in West Cork - Netflix.

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