Why are we stuck with CO2 emissions for oil we use and beef we sell abroad?

Sam Russell · 20-07-2022 4:30pm #1

We burn oil in cars buses and trucks, and energy we generate for electricity. These are counted as CO2 emissions. We need to reduce them. OK

We keep millions of dairy and beef animals to produce food that we export 90% of to the rest of the world. These produce CO2 emissions, and we need to reduce them.

Hang on a minute, is there not double counting going on here.

Why is it that the OPEC countries do not get stuck with the CO2 their oil and gas generates, but we get stuck with that CO2, and also the CO2 generated to give the the butter, cheese and beef the OPEC guys consume for their dinner?

Now we never had the heavy industry like coal and steel that did most of the damage in the past, so we are reducing from a low base, and we must also cope with this double counting.

This needs sorting out.

Ash.J.Williams · 20-07-2022 4:37pm

it's nonsence that we seem to have a guily concience over the damage done over the years and nonsence that our government are pushing this guilt on us

ps

it's the greens that have us driving so many diesels

Sam Russell · 20-07-2022 5:01pm

The Greens never got anyone to drive a diesel - the Greens wanted you to take PT, ride a bike or walk.

MrMusician18 · 20-07-2022 5:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058255345/why-are-we-stuck-with-co2-emissions-for-oil-we-use-and-beef-we-sell-abroad

Emissions are counted at the point CO2 enters the atmosphere. Apart from international transport - I'm not sure where they are counted.

If we were to try and change the system so that CO2 was counted where goods were consumed, we would likely have higher emissions as the manufacturing nations would transfer to us.

In any case, the point is reducing the emissions where they are generated. If we start allocating Chinese emissions to Ireland for example, there is little way for us to influence reductions in their processes.

Sam Russell · 20-07-2022 7:21pm

My point is that basically using 'reduction' as the metric unfairly passes the burden to those whose consumption historically was always less, while those who polluted greatly still pollute greatly, although maybe less than they did.

PlasticPatrick · 22-07-2022 8:29am

The beef herd is firmly in the environmentalists sights, they are coming for it.

Just cast your eyes over to the very much under publicised farmer protests that are going on in Holland at the moment, that will give you a glimpse of what is about to happen in Ireland.

Due to the gas shortage, coal and heavy oil electricity generation plants are being use again, the extra carbon will have to be offset, farming is the easy target.

Meanwhile China and India are opening coal fired plants for fun and their emissions are on a vertical trajectory.

There may be trouble ahead.

Yellow_Fern · 22-07-2022 8:39am

Ireland's emissions have been dropping for years, China's are still rising. In 2019 they exceeded ours.

KildareP · 22-07-2022 9:08am

Same reason as China is called out as being heavy polluters despite the vast majority of the west having outsourced energy intensive manufacturing and production there. We own the end product but aren't happy to own the pollution that went into producing it and shipping it halfway across the planet.

If counting of CO2 emissions was done at the end user level, then sure, our agri figures in Ireland would drop quite significantly, but I would hazard a guess it would be far outweighed once all of our Made in China goods that come into Ireland were counted under Ireland instead of being lumped in as "China".

OK - so we can't directly control how willing or not China is to be as efficient and environmentally friendly as possible.

However the EU are moving towards carbon borders - so they will start to apply carbon tax on products imported from outside the EU based on how clean or dirty the manufacturing process was to produce that product. As per the article they're starting with the most energy intensive products like steel, aluminium and fertiliser to begin with:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-countries-back-plan-world-first-carbon-border-tariff-2022-03-15

There's a simple reason why mass manufacturing has largely been sent to China across the board throughout the west - it's cheaper, much cheaper, than it is to produce it ourselves (collective "we" being the entire western world) without breaching one or more of our domestic regulations like environmental law, employment law, minimum wage, worker conditions, health and safety, etc.

Unfortunately that means the price of those products which use China as a source for materials at any point along the product's manufacturing cycle will ultimately rise, perhaps significantly, because we will either have to pay a significant carbox tax, or because the cost for China to produce it using cleaner methods costs them more to produce it and they'll naturally pass those costs along. At some point it may then become more cost effective overall for us to start producing those products domestically again.

Are people going to accept paying more in the name of being green?

peter kern · 22-07-2022 9:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119365330#Comment_119365330

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EN.ATM.CO2E.PC

what do you think is a country with a low historical consumption .

afghanistan i guess would be a good start or what did you have in mind.

PlasticPatrick · 22-07-2022 11:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119371093#Comment_119371093

"OK - so we can't directly control how willing or not China is to be as efficient and environmentally friendly as possible."

But yes we can control how they produce it by simply not buying it or reducing what we buy.

Your average environmental activist is big on ideas but short on personal individual action, take the eejit that heads up "insulate Britain" who admits he hasn't insulated his own home but is blocking roads and motorways to make the state do it for him.

Then there is the usual virtue signallers who march and campaign but take the latest iphone or android each year, run diesel cars, have several foreign holidays a year and have wardrobes full of clothes purchased from Penneys\Primark a fair proportion of which they will either wear once or never wear at all.

peter kern · 22-07-2022 3:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119371842#Comment_119371842

while many here try to point the finger at other nations the co2 emission per capita is pretty much the same in ireland and china so we cant just blame china for having the same level as Ireland.

i think 1 Irish person s co2 footprint is 165 people in burkina faso . and maybe it would change slightly if we use other calculations ie what people actually use but its very unlikely to be less than 100 times more which is pretty crazy at the same time hardly anybody flies in burkina faso or has a car , aircom or heating

PlasticPatrick · 23-07-2022 11:51am

Yes per capita they are close but just look at the trajectory of each country, whilst China is ramping up C02 production rapidly, Ireland is going very much in the opposite direction. As the Chinese open more and more coal power stations the differential will be clear.

The next steps to reduce Ireland's C02 will be painful, the beef herd and farmers will come under attack, once again look to Holland and even Sri Lanka if you want to see the results of the push for low carbon in agriculture, protests, bankruptcy and civil unrest.

Sam Russell · 23-07-2022 1:25pm

Climate change due to human activity is a huge problem for humanity. Of that there is no doubt anymore - it is just the solution that is beyond us.

Population growth is also a huge problem for humanity. Just for reference - 1800 world population was about 1 billion, 1900 - about 1.7 billion, 2000 - about 6.1 billion, and 2100 - estimated to be about 12 billion. Obviously, these figures are between estimates and best guesses. With this growth in human populations, any attempt at controlling CO2 is going to fail spectacularly unless the population growth is brought under control.

And here in Ireland, we are worried about the size of the national herd.

Meanwhile, famine, poverty, disease, and war (causing famine, poverty, and disease) - all contribute to huge global problems for humanity. More solutions that are beyond us.

techman1 · 23-07-2022 2:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119373147#Comment_119373147

But the biggest contributors to CO2 emissions are not cows but people, therefore countries with large dense populations actually get rewarded in the current Carbon counting system and countries that have low population densities but produce lots of natural resources like Canada, Australia and to a lesser extent Ireland get punished because the producers are punished not the consumers.

For example if Ireland was to double its population there would be huge increases in total Carbon emissions but our pe r Capita emissions would reduce and we would be then be regarded as a low emission country. This shows how preposterous and political the whole carbon counting system is and why total Carbon emissions will continue to rise

Ubbquittious · 23-07-2022 2:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364730#Comment_119364730

PT Cruiser?

Sam Russell · 23-07-2022 2:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119376746#Comment_119376746

Public Transport Cruiser - known by most as a bus or train.

Ubbquittious · 23-07-2022 2:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119376207#Comment_119376207

China is a massive outlier. They could put a big dent in their emissions by quenching a few coal seam fires that are just burning away not benefiting anyone

VinLieger · 26-07-2022 3:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119376578#Comment_119376578

Actually there are new estimates that we are going to reaach a peak population of around 10.4 billion between 2050 and 2080 and it will start shrinking from then on thanks to global declining birth rates. In fact its going to take us at least twice as long to get from 8-10 billion than it did from 6-8.

This is going to bring with it completely different problems for climate change beyond a constantly increasing population though as we will have a globally aging population requiring more and more care from an ever diminishing younger population.

peter kern · 27-07-2022 3:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119376207#Comment_119376207

again its always easy to point the finger at other countries we are reducing from a extremely hight level both Ireland and china are very bad i think this is the key message.

https://www.epa.ie/our-services/monitoring--assessment/climate-change/ghg/latest-emissions-data/

transport is the biggest increase in the last 30 years

why cant we walk to the supermarket or want to do the school run with a suv .

what is the problem to wear a jacket at home and office in the winter . there is so much we can do before we should point the finger at others

sorry sri lanka has very different issues and you can not fix that just on one issue

could you filll me in where holland has civil unrest , bankruptcy and mass protests

peter kern · 27-07-2022 7:29pm

But the biggest contributors to CO2 emissions are not cows but people, therefore countries with large dense populations actually get rewarded in the current Carbon counting system and countries that have low population densities but produce lots of natural resources like Canada, Australia and to a lesser extent Ireland get punished because the producers are punished not the consumers.

For example if Ireland was to double its population there would be huge increases in total Carbon emissions but our pe r Capita emissions would reduce and we would be then be regarded as a low emission country. This shows how preposterous and political the whole carbon counting system is and why total Carbon emissions will continue to rise

how do densly populated countries get rewarded ... if i look at the netherlands they are super densely populated ie the most densely populated country in eu they are doing worse than Ireland at 8.8 metric tons per capita prob one of the 3 worst in eu. luxemburg is 15 metric tons per capita

in Ireland if we had double the population and the same agriculture and animal stock the co2 per capita would be reduced by 18.7 en percent more or less , that would not make ireland a low emission country , that would leave ireland at about 6 metric tons per capita the world average is 4.5

i do agree the footprint should be more consume focused, but then this of course this would lower chinas output massively as well . since they are the fabric of the world and i guess would then also add to Irelands footprint , as a high consumption country.

at the end of the day i think there is no real way to make Ireland be a bellow world average polluter right now which ever way you calculate it , not even close at the moment. even if we take out all agriculture and lifestock we would still be 5 metric tonnes ie still above world average.

PlasticPatrick · 28-07-2022 10:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394729#Comment_119394729

Have you not seen the farmer protests in Holland?

Basically they have told the farmers that they have to massively reduce the amount of fertiliser use to cut nitrogen emissions, the resultant and ongoing protests saw live ammunition warning shots being fired at the protesters.

That's a taster of civil unrest for starters.

Then there's Sri lanka, where they banned the use of fertilisers overnight, again results were crop failure, hunger, farmers going out of business and yes civil unrest.

Meanwhile if you look at the targets at COP26, methane reduction was high on the agenda and yes China, India and Russia refused to sign up, but hey Ireland are looking to reduce the herd.

https://cdn-i--scmp-com.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/cdn.i-scmp.com/sites/default/files/styles/768x768/public/d8/images/methode/2021/11/04/14c7fe08-3cca-11ec-a1b3-e785d5c8830c_image_hires_211439.jpg?itok=tx-rJlm5&v=1636031688

Sam Russell · 29-07-2022 8:41am

Farmers protesting? That must be a new thing - or maybe it is just the usual protests.

Why did the farmers block the city centre with their tractors the last time? Cannot remember, but it was over something. Farmers have been protesting since forever - usually for bigger handouts from the Gov.

Nothing changes. I remember an RTE film crew came under attack from the protesting farmers in Cork when they started showing all the expensive Mercedes Benz cars the protesting farmers came in. I do not understand why that angered the protesting farmers, but there you go.

amacca · 30-07-2022 1:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119402211#Comment_119402211

Bit biased/one sided in fairness?????.......not all farmers agreed with the last protest, some thought it was ham-fisted and wouldn't work.....some of those wouldnt necessarily disagree with the reasons for the protest however....

It was essentially about the level of control processors had on the price of beef etc...........it didn't go to plan (no pun intended), misguided perhaps but not necessarily unwarranted imo.

Further protests at the direction this is headed in/way farmers are being villified etc aren't necessarily unjustified either imo, I'm sure RTE will pick un unrepresentative sample for their coverage and ignore any real and potentially justified concerns the average farmer may have however....it doesn't help that most of the spokespeople on the farming side are god awful at representing genuine issues/debating/getting counterpoints across

For many protest(s) would be genuinely about trying to leave their business viable, fighting for what they see as their and their families future...as to the way emissions are being calculated and what is not being factored in......its not nearly as transparent as it should be imo and there seem to be a lot of omissions/narrow focus to what is going on at the moment if you ask me......with no explanation/reasoning given beyond words like "efficiency"......

I say this in relation to the minister, teagasc etc etc.....

I'd certainly love to get a proper explanation to the direction things are headed in and the wisdom/fairness of the current course...

I'm also a bit sick that most of the same numpties that caused the problem in agriculture (with policies etc in the very recent past) seem to be now balls deep in "solving" it with no repercussions/consequences for their monumental (in the context of the climate emergency) **** ups in the past ....

If they got it so wrong back then (because imo they were in bed with the industry lobby) how can they be trusted to do it right now when they are probably still in bed with them.....I think farmers would be right to be very wary and should be willing to protest for some level of fair play............

Sam Russell · 30-07-2022 10:27am

@amacca

Farmers have every right to protest, but they should realise that protesting can be counterproductive.

It took only one farmer in 2001 to import F&M disease into Ireland by importing an infected animal illegally. Fortunately, the nation acted as a nation, at great cost, to keep the outbreak in control. Likewise, Covid19 was fought be the whole world, accepting privations stoically, and the fight goes on, but the threat has been kept at bay, although many people have perished.

This climate emergency requires the nation (and the world) to act in unison because the unfolding disaster will only get worse even if the actions proposed are successful because much of the damage has already occurred. The best we can hope for is mitigation.

I only hope the farmers treat the 25% cut in the way most drivers treat speed limits - that is they exceed them with abandon, treating them as a target, not a limit.

To get to the cuts in emissions to work requires many many diverse actions - let us hope we all take those many actions individually as well as a nation.

amacca · 30-07-2022 3:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119406962#Comment_119406962

I find it hard to disagree, but I do have a sneaking suspicion some of the proposed measures being talked about will be counterproductive too (at least in terms of GHG emissions)...and will drive consolidation and smaller operators out....I think a just transition (if there could be one) would be incentivising more extensive production....some of the stuff being talked about looks more like favouring larger intensive factory style operations (to my mind at least)

mickdw · 30-07-2022 3:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364730#Comment_119364730

This must be the latest effort to try make people forget how wrong they got the whole diesel car thing.

Sam Russell · 30-07-2022 5:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119407995#Comment_119407995

It was not the Green Party that caused the likes of VW to stop selling petrol cars above a Golf size. I wanted to buy a petrol Tiguan a few years ago - but they do not sell them in Ireland.

Suddenly, the car companies stopped selling larger petrol cars - only diesel.

The change in tax for cars happened in 2007 - fifteen years ago. Who was to know at the time that VW (and other car companies) fiddled the basis for GHG emissions. It is not the Green Party who are responsible for the criminal behaviour of car companies, no more than they were for the irresponsible and probably criminal behaviour of the banks that caused the financial crash in 2008.

Even if the GP did get it wrong about diesel (actually it was based on fuel consumption - not use of diesel), the subsequent governments did nothing to correct it, and if they did, there would have been an outcry if the lower rates of motor tax was reversed.

[By the way, I have nothing to do with the Green Party or with any political party.]

mickdw · 31-07-2022 11:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119408462#Comment_119408462

Ffs, why do you think the car makers no longer offered petrol versions here, it was the co2 tax policy Introduced by the greens which made diesel car cheaper than petrol cars to buy here. This was a switch of the previous situation where a diesel was more expensive but cheaper to run. After 08, the option was a petrol which was dearer to buy, dearer to fuel and dearer to tax or a diesel - and you say the greens didn't do it?

You are not correct to bring the emissions fraud into it. The greens considered only co2 as a basis for motortax. They completely ignored the cancer causing emissions which were always higher in diesel engines but of course green policy was all about co2 and didn't know about polluting cities with Cancer causing emissions.

The emissions cheat was not across all makes and everyone was aware of the fact that diesels were not clean.

The greens got it wrong and force people's hands in car buying choice.

To say that the big bad car manufacturers just happened to stop selling petrols here is the funniest thing I've read here in a while.

Mecanudo · 31-07-2022 11:26am

Sam Russell · 31-07-2022 12:20pm

The change to Motor Tax and VRT took effect from 2008 - that is fourteen years ago. No Gov since has seen the error of that decision and chosen to reverse or revise it. The basic decision was taken by the Gov of the day of which the GP were a minority.

The emission figures from all motor manufacturers were fraudulent at the time, using every trick they could to reduce the measurement - by, for example, taping across the panel gaps, omitting the alternator during tests, and other actions we do not know about, etc. VW went as far as to 'adjust' the software to behave differently if it detected it was under test. Maybe other manufacturers did the same.

As a result of the above, the emission figures are now calculated by real use measurements so fiddling the numbers is not going to work.

It was possible to buy the Seat version of the Tiguan in petrol but not a VW one. VW (Ireland) do not offer their larger cars in Petrol in Ireland, but they are available in other markets. It was the motor manufacturers that stopped selling larger sized petrol cars and left little choice for those for whom a diesel car was wholly inappropriate - such as urban short distance driving patterns. They should have warned purchasers that diesel was a bad choice for that style of use.

VRT now takes NOx into account, so some changes have come into effect.

mickdw · 31-07-2022 4:56pm

The petrol cars disappeared here completely and utterly due to the 2008 taxation change.

Manufacturers will offer whatever will sell in suitable numbers. A manufacturer / distributor would be foolish to offer stuff that only 1 in 100 might want so there was no point in offering petrol version due to the tax position which made the diesel cheaper to buy and cheaper to tax. It's that simple.

You further contradict yourself when stating that no change has taken place since while you acknowledge that we now have nox tax which rightly penalises emissions from dangerous gases. That quite a big change in the system.

Of course it's no surprise that a party who favour bicycles might not be up to speed on vehicle emissions but even looking back at this distance time, green party supporters cannot admit that they got this completely and utterly wrong. Of course to admit that the green party might know feck all about what they are legislating for might be enough for more people to question what they preach and really we couldn't have that.

It was also a scandal at the time how peoples existing cars were devalued overnight due to their nonsense policy. An 07 registered 520d bmw for example was 600 plus euro, with the identical car on an 08 plate being 150 to tax. The 07 became sale proof.

Sam Russell · 31-07-2022 6:07pm

Look, I accept that there major problems with the Motor Tax issue that should have been corrected, but the GP were not in power to do so. I am not an apologist for the GP, but I think they get blamed for elements of a policy badly implemented.

Even the current system is nuts, where a plug-in hybrid gets credit for the sometimes never use of the plug-in bit.

The Nox changes are recent, and only apply to VRT since Jan 2020.

[Edit: I got an email from a spoof site offering the following:

Your Mercedes might have had a cheat device fitted to pass its emissions test without you knowing. If it did you could make a claim against Mercedes.

So someone thinks MB were at it as well. Of course I have never owned a MB car, so not for me. They say the claim could amount to £10,000 - so not even the right currency - based in Spain]

mickdw · 31-07-2022 6:32pm

But it was a green policy firmly entered into program for government at the time when making their deal to enter government with FF.

I don't see anyone bar the green party to blame for this one I'm afraid.

I can still hear Gormley defending it at the time. He certainly had no wish to alter some of the obvious issues with the implementation at the time while he was still sitting pretty in government. The biggest issue I saw at the time apart from the whole ignoring of all emissions bar co2 was the refusal to allow cars registered prior to 08 to be reclassified / moved over to co2 system. This meant 2 identical cars could have 1000 euro in difference to tax if registered 31/ 12 /2007 v 1/1/ 2008.

The fact that the manufacturers had such elaborate cheats in place re nox only goes to highlight how big an issue those emissions were and shows that the greens did not have the environmental credentials to be legislating in such an important area if they were oblivious to the finer details of vehicle emissions.

Sam Russell · 31-07-2022 7:43pm

The fact that the manufacturers had such elaborate cheats in place re nox only goes to highlight how big an issue those emissions were and shows that the greens did not have the environmental credentials to be legislating in such an important area if they were oblivious to the finer details of vehicle emissions.

The cheats were there for CO2, not NOx, because NOx was not an issue at the time.

I agree that all cars should have been allowed to choose which system they were classified under - at least for older cars (pre-2008).

The Mazda MX5 1.8l had an unfortunate accident. A 2007 version had a tax rate of €560 (cc) iirc, the 2008 had a tax rate of €750 (CO2) and the 2009 had a tax rate of €570 (CO2), all because of a slight change in the CO2 value declared. It was a stupid system to start with, made worse by a bad implementation.

Pity the GP do not put more emphasis on rail infrastructure to ease congestion and cut emissions.

mickdw · 31-07-2022 9:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412779#Comment_119412779

I am correct re the manufacturers having elaborate nox cheats in place.

That system of cheating was tuned to suit the EU co2 systems but USA had nox testing back then and the cheat device primarily to artificially reduce nox to 1/40 of real levels some reported. My point is therefore 100 percent valid. The greens who sought to bring in emissions based taxation of vehicles had no idea what they were doing. Nox wasn't new. Diesels were not clean but it appears they didn't know they should be looking at it. The.manufacturers knew it was bad and had the cheat to cover it up. Everyone knew diesel had a dirty side but not our green heros who promoted diesel cars for city centres.

Sam Russell · 31-07-2022 9:51pm

I think you are correct about the USA testing for NOx.

And also the GP knew little about the effects of changing the Motor Tax rates. They tried to do too much, and had too great an effect on the market and actually did not get the result they expected.

People who bought the diesel cars and suvs and used them for short urban trips - shops, kids to school etc. - ended up with expensive engine problems.

Bass Reeves · 29-08-2022 6:09pm

The Green party has being putting the cart before the horse always. Take Ryan's and the GP opposition to oil and gas exploration in Ireland. We have never bought ashore a commercial oil find and there is only one that is discovered ( Barryroe) we have two extremely large Gas fields discovered Kinsale and Corrib. There is a smaller Corrib field that need drilling but as the minister involved Ryan will not sign off neither will he sign off on a test well for Barryroe which could legally cost Ireland a substantial sum. In the billions. Exploration has stopped in Ireland in case we find oil

Recently Minister Ryan refused to meet the developer of the LNG terminal without even offering an excuse and the developer had to meed the Tainste instead.

hTtps://m.independent.ie/irish-news/billionaire-gas-backer-secured-meeting-with-leo-varadkar-about-shannon-project-after-eamon-ryan-turned-him-down-41940903.html

What is happening at present is crazy. We are switching people to electrical based heating systems and our electrical based generation system cannot cope. Accross the EU they are putting in temporary LNG storage systems but The Bike Kid is not for changing

https://www.rigzone.com/news/europe_rushing_to_install_new_lng_import_facilities-29-aug-2022-170138-article

If you use wind and solar you need a infill generation system. The only infill generation system is gas generation. Not only that the whole renewable generation plan is deeply flawed. The natural resources needed for renewables ( steel, aluminum, copper lead, lithium etc) are not available in sufficient quanties for the whole world to change over to change over to renewable unless we use nuclear which the GP is dead set again as well.

The Bike Kid and the GP have us once again walking the plank. Unless some sanity is returned to electricity generation then we are in serious sh!t. Wind generation even with solar to supply the national grid is not possible without a storage source. This happy clappy thinking that we can transfer in and out with inter connectors accross Europe is not a viable solution.

As well there has been no analysis of how much of the wind actually produced is useable when it is produced. We have heard of figures of 35-40% produced but I have heard of figures of as low as 2% produced some days with the actual average of what is actually useable being 15-20%.

Sam Russell · 29-08-2022 8:10pm

I am no apologist for Ryan as he appears to be in search of the perfect which can be the enemy of the good (and in many of his pronouncements this is true).

The change to electric vehicles is a mistake. What should be done is a move to public transport, and cycling, and for those it would suit electric assisted bikes and e-scooters.

I was at St Vincent's Hospital and was astounded how the campus is a giant car park despite being on the Dart line (Sydney Parade), many Dublin bus routes (7 and 4), and BE routes which are timed to suit appointments. Workers should be able to use PT - not all but many, not none appear to use PT judging by the workers car park. The hospital has a nice little earner for someone - operating a high cost car parking system. Nearly all hospitals are deriving income from parking - well it may be directed elsewhere - but it is driven by the need for those who drive to the hospital to park their cars.

The move to heat pumps is only worth while if the building is very well insulated (B3 or better) and the heating is left on with (accurate) thermostats to turn it on or off when heat is actually required. Operating it like a gas or oil boiler - (on when you get home and off when you are not) - will get no benefits from the thermodynamics that govern the heat pump. Not many people know that.

So insulate first, ventilate properly after the accidental air leaks are dealt with, and learn to conserve energy. That should be the message. Accidental leaks in a house would be like leaving a mid-sized window open - now no-one would do that if it was cold outside.

The biggest PT project, Metrolink, (which should be driven by Ryan) just languishes on the to-do-sometime-next-decade, at astronomical cost now and when building actually gets underway, and will probably be cancelled after racking up the already huge costs before a single bit of a shovel hits the dirt.

Major users of electrical energy should look to cut down their use and install PV panels, while domestic users should learn to economise and time their use to minimise the strain on the grid.

Instead we have people being encourage to get rid of good ICE cars that have many years of good service in them and pay very high prices for heavy EV SUV cars that will consume lots of wasted energy carrying a huge battery around to give comfort to the driver that the occasional long trip wont give them range anxiety, or the need to recharge at a point midway to his grannies house.

Ryan has it all wrong.

Hotblack Desiato · 12-09-2022 10:25am

Dublin Airport is just one more example.

PT doesn't run reliably enough, frequently enough, or to enough places (An Lar-ism is alive and well) and with almost no exceptions doesn't run through the night so is useless for shift workers.

We have services subsidised by taxes but designed and operated to suit the desires of the service operators not the service users.

But like the hospitals there's a perverse incentive not to improve things, because the DAA makes an absolute fortune out of car parking.

Sam Russell · 12-09-2022 12:58pm

For a long time I have been in favour of extending the Dart from Clongriffin to the airport over green countryside - a distance of 7 km. Very few land owners would be involved, and only crossing the M1 and entering the airport would be the only challenges.

It was always opposed because it reduces the business case for Metro - or Metrolink. It could be completed quickly, and cheaply and now Metrolink is nearly ready to go, maybe it could be resurrected.

The cost would be trivial compared to the very much larger project of Metrolink - the Metrolink serves much more than the airport, and the extra connection would be a huge addition - particularly connecting while the Metrolink is built. I am sure that IR still have the plans.

Podge_irl · 12-09-2022 4:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119606531#Comment_119606531

There is literally a 24 hour bus service to the Airport.

Anyway, this **** on Ryan, as much fun as people get from it, is a bit irrelevant to the topic at hand as he has no real control over how CO2 calculations are done globally.

Hotblack Desiato · 12-09-2022 10:34pm

I didn't say there wasn't - but how frequently, and to where?

Why are we stuck with CO2 emissions for oil we use and beef we sell abroad?

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