"Green" policies are destroying this country

"There's little if any similarity between the ancient rearing of cattle and the modern industrial approach to grass and livestock production. They are literally worlds apart. The large dairy farm enterprises are just as alien in some ways as data centres and factory complexes"

No one is saying that modern agriculture methods compared to agricultural methods in the past are the same. The point made was that animal agriculture has been a significant part of agricultural production both in the past and present precisely because of the limitations of our soils and climate. That much hasn't changed.

And there's no argument that agriculture here has not evolved and developed to keep pace with modern food production needs and standards. Many farms in the previous two centuries here were small scale mixed farms having livestock and growing very limited acerages of barly and oats in those areas of the farm with slightly better soils and drainage, primarily used on the farm, with any small surplus being sold. Many of those farms eventually became uneconomic and many small farmers had little choice other than to leave the land and/or emigrated.

Btw I'd disagree strongly though that modern livestock production or dairy farming here is alien. Like its historical counterpart - livestock farming including daiying in Ireland relies on grassland whether that's for dairy or beef farming. And that makes much of our dairy and beef farming markedly different to much of Europe.

"We have this idea promoted of the small farmer with his wee land holding just about making a bean."

No. I don't know anyone who believes that about agriculture here.

The fact that modern machinery and technology are now used in farming is hardly surprising or something to be derided. Labour systems and land holdings have changed and modernised and have evolved with changing technology and the times to continue to produce foodstuffs for domestic consumption and export. What remains is the absolute majority of farms in Ireland are family owned. However farm incomes vary hugely, with larger specialist farms on good land having the advantage over smaller farms in marginal areas.

However it remains agriculture here is a very different profile to many farms in Europe and the UK which are owned by shareholders or multinationals. In England average farm is 214 acres in size. This compares to the average farm here at approx 80 acres

Neither is anyone one saying that changes in agriculture relative to emissions will not be implemented. And afaik no one in farming is getting a free pass. That said agriculture remains a very important part of our economy whether some groups like that or otherwise.

Th issue being discussed is agriculture is being used as a political football by the greens to push through their own particular ideology, much of which makes little or no sense.

A better solution would be to develop large scale pumped storage to take advantage of the times when wind produces so much excess electricity that we have to practically give it away. Wind without storage is only half the solution. Turlough Hill is evidence that we know how to build these large storage solutions if we want to, this is tried and tested technology that could be built today if the will was there and it could become a large revenue earner if we used it to buffer the European DC Super Grid.

We didn't build gas storage because up until Russia started to play silly buggers it was totally unviable in the market.

"All the proposed storage projects are private ventures. "

You'd be very wrong then

For a poster who is constantly pasting news links - I can only guess you missed this news story. Thing is it was also posted and discussed on this very thread.

A state owned LNG has indeed been mooted and quite recently

LNG terminals, where gas is cooled into a liquid for shipping via tanker, take roughly four years to build.

Four years is a long time to wait.

If climate change causes droughts and famine then Monbiot is not wrong in the long term.

What we're doing now is directly and predictably causing children to go hungry and starve to death.

And calling for more gas infrastructure to avoid the low risk possibility of short term energy shortages is trading your risk of inconvenience against a guarantee of children starving in the future.

Peter Singer argues that wealthy people who do not give money to charity are morally the same as someone who walks past a drowning child in a park and refuses to save them because it might damage an expensive pair of shoes.

Ethically our generation will be viewed as the most destructive selfish and short sighted of all generations. But at least you got to take that weekend break to get UGG boots in Manhattan

Its already been minutely gone over ,but the existing LNG terminal would have already been likely up and running if various green ideologues been told to take a very long run and a jump.

As it is, I believe the current estimate for the proposed Shannon LNG terminal from planning being granted to storage is just over two years. With much of the infastrructure being modular units shipped to, placed on site and connected.

If you wish you can trawl the thread for that particular and very long discussion which has already been extensively gone over.

Show me the times when on a continent scale there was such a glut of all of solar and wind and geothermal and hydro and Nuclear, that we were at a risk of life threatening power shortages?

(*wrings hands*) "Will someone not think of the children!).

Globally there is sufficient food to feed everyone on the planet. Sadly the principle causes of food shortages globally are as a result of war, corruption and inequality. For example see the potential impacts of Russias invasion of Ukraine atm.

Eitherway none of that changes the fact that Monbiot is the confectionery equivalent of a very fruity fruit cake. Hitler was mad, yet even he came up with solutions for unemployment in prewar Germany. Just as even a stopped clock can get things right. If yer man Monbiot manages to gets anything right, its not by dint of rationality. And no thats not saying Monbiot is a clock or even Hitler.

Making sure countries such as Ireland have sufficient backup to unreliable renewables is not simply avoiding "inconvenience" or causing some unspecified children, somewhere to possibly starve at some indeterminate point in the future. It is to make sure in the here and now that the lights stay on, people can stay warm, especially the elderly and yes even children in the here and now.

I've never been to Manhattan and UGG boots really wouldn't suit me. But more importantly neither have fuq all to do with this country having essential energy reserves.

I believe the LNG terminal detailed was the current Shannon LNG terminal targeted by various green interests and Mr Ryan apparently trying to interfer with the planning process.

In 2008 the same project was put through a High Court challenge by one of those green jobbies. Ultimately that challenge failed. However when the project was delayed, the subsequent planning permission was again challenged by the same lot . And here we are!

The most likely reason it won't be built, would be if the same lot manage to get their way. Which thankfully is highly unlikely

"We didn't build gas storage because up until Russia started to play silly buggers it was totally unviable in the market."

We had gas storage in Kinsale until it was decommissioned. We also have a national gas emergency plan since long before the Ukraine crisis:

According to that plan, we've always known we were on a sticky wicket in the event of supply-side disruptions:

"Given Ireland’s geographical location, on the periphery of Europe, measures such as reverse flows and coordinated dispatching are not feasible supply side market-based measures. Furthermore, the use of long term and short-term contracts do not protect Ireland against low supply in the UK, or major infrastructure risks."

In the event of a gas crisis, step one is to maximise indigenous gas production, storage, and LNG facilities. Unfortunately, according to the plan, the minister for DCCAE becomes the crisis manager in the event of a problem. Yes, believe it or not, we are in the preposterous position of relying on Eamon Ryan to coordinate a plan that he is ideologically opposed to. You couldn't make it up.

We’ve been through the whole pumped storage thing on this thread.

There aren’t enough sites and if I remember correctly Turlough hill is pretty much a big battery. It cuts the top off the demand peak for about 3 hours then the top lake is empty.

That isn’t worth a damn when the wind stops blowing for 2 weeks a la 2021.

By the way when you say building gas storage was totally unviable- can you explain that please?

Why are we one of the only country’s in Europe without ANY gas storage? Why was it viable everywhere else? Why couldn’t the energy minister decide it was of national importance to build gas storage for security of supply of this important transition fuel?

This is good news, there’s nothing green about producing new cars. The longer we keep cars on the road the better, in fact they should take the grants away from new Ev buyers and give them to people to help maintain older cars. Now that would be truly green.