Germany needs a bailout

MrMusician18 · 26-07-2022 01:42AM #1

So it looks like nordstream 1 is going to operate at 20% for a while before it's anticipated that the taps are turned off completely. In response to this, the European Commission have come up with a plan to (potentially mandatory) reduce has consumption across the bloc by 15% in an effort to bolster reserves before the winter. This has caused division across the EU with gas network isolated countries like Spain and Portugal resisting.

Spain's deputy PM even has come out with this line, which has strong echos of the German Finance minister during the eurozone crisis: “Unlike other countries, we Spaniards have not lived beyond our means from an energy point of view,”. Other countries that were at the blunt end of German ire during the Eurozone crisis aren't being particularly kind to the plan, stating that it's simply a rescue for Germany and bailing them out for their poor energy policy.

Ireland is also isolated physically from European network, so a 15% cut here wouldn't do anything but relieve supply pressure in the UK. The Irish governments position on this mandatory cut isn't clear however. Would such a sacrifice be palatable here to save the economy that charged us 6% on the bailout loans? - I have my doubts.

head82 · 26-07-2022 02:13AM

For Ireland to reduce its gas consumption by 15% would in no way benefit the availabity of gas to our European neighbors considering our supplies are from the UK/Norway North sea region due to our location geographically.

However, I do believe we're tied into some EU agreement that provides for the sharing of available supplys to be distributed equally amongst all EU territories in the event of a shortage.

How the logistics of that would work, I have no idea.

xxxxxxl · 26-07-2022 02:26AM

Ha, Will a bomb be going off in Germany 🤣

Bit cynical · 26-07-2022 02:30AM

If reducing consumption by 15% will not help then we will be told to pay some other way.

Bit cynical · 26-07-2022 02:37AM

So people can remind themselves about our bailout here's an article written during the lead up to it.

Ireland told: Take EU bailout or trigger crisis

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2010/nov/15/ireland-portugal-spain-european-debt-crisis

Dublin warned it has 24 hours to make decision as EU emergency talks loom

Many other similar articles about how Ireland was under pressure by foreign interests prior to accepting the bailout.

Irish resisting EU bail-out pressure

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11755197

The Irish Republic insists it does not need financial assistance from the EU amid speculation that a bail-out is increasingly likely.

We should remember this when Germany and the likes are looking for help. We helped them by taking the bailout. They did not help us.

Atlantic Dawn · 26-07-2022 02:39AM

Germany have loads of coal that if they need to they can switch to relatively easily.

The eco lads/ladettes will quiten down when their house is too cold to live in.

Pa ElGrande · 26-07-2022 07:01AM

This video of Putin is several years old.

Germany to close all 84 of its coal-fired power plants, will rely primarily on renewable energy, Jan. 26, 2019

Germany shuts down half of its 6 remaining nuclear plants, Jan 03, 2022

Germany Reopens Coal Plants Because Of Reduced Russian Energy, Jul 8, 2022

Why Germany won’t give up on giving up nuclear, April 28, 2022

Three nuclear power plants remain active — down from 17 in 2011 — and they’re scheduled for decommissioning at the end of this year.

Three other plants closed at the end of 2021 and are in the early stages of shutdown. All other plants are being dismantled, and can’t just be switched back on: The containment building of the Isar 1 site in Bavaria, for example, is already being taken apart. Any realistic discussion about delaying the phaseout centers around the final six.

The six nuclear power plants generated 12 percent of German electricity last year; the final three produce about 5 percent.

Germans could switch to wood this winter to heat their homes as Russia withholds natural gas, Deutsche Bank says, Jul 13, 2022

The panic is palpable.

European Commissioner for Energy Kadri Simson told reporters that gas storage capacities in the EU are now filled to about 65% but that further reduction of Russian gas deliveries will make reaching the 80% target "very challenging."

Failing to adequately fill in storage capacities means "we risk ending this winter with empty storage which will be impossible to refill in time for the next heating season," she stressed.

source

Pa ElGrande · 26-07-2022 07:36AM

Portugal refuses Brussels’ call to cut gas consumption

Portugal needs gas to power its renewables energy sector. Without gas, and in the situation of drought that has already deeply compromised hydro power, systems in place would simply be incapable of supplying the country, environment minister Duarte Cordeiro told reporters yesterday.

Portugal isn’t the only country digging in heels against Von der Leyen’s European Gas Demand Reduction Plan. Other dissenters include Spain, Greece, Ireland, Malta and Cyprus. Elsewhere, Poland, Hungary and Slovakia are also opposed, for slightly different reasons: they want the plan ‘softened’; the percentage cut to be lower.

To be fair, Brussels has already accepted that countries (like Portugal) which have very limited ‘interconnections’ (very little ability to share power) can cut by 5% not 15% – but even that, says Expresso, is not acceptable to either Portugal’s or Spain’s political leaders, both of them in charge of countries with very limited ‘interconnections’.

Let's see how friendly EU states really are when it comes to sharing an essential resource in limited supply.

brokenangel · 26-07-2022 07:39AM

Atlantic Dawn

Jul 26, 2022

Germany have loads of coal that if they need to they can switch to relatively easily.
The eco lads/ladettes will quiten down when their house is too cold to live in.

No they wont

it will just prove what they are saying for the last 20 years is right, building entire energy system based on coal/oil/gas is stupid, especially for ireland when we don’t have enough of those resources available to provide

If we had invested in renewable 20 years ago and run out grid on them we wouldn’t care now

Markcheese · 26-07-2022 08:03AM

Atlantic Dawn

Jul 26, 2022

Germany have loads of coal that if they need to they can switch to relatively easily.
The eco lads/ladettes will quiten down when their house is too cold to live in.

Not much good if you live in an apartment ,and your gas central heating goes off ...

As for support from here ,we'll just send what-ever excess electricity we have through interconnectors to the UK , and from there to Europe ,which we normally do anyway ... I assume though ,that moneypoint and the tarbert power stations will be flat out over winter,(there is a gas inter-connector between the UK and Europe ,so that'll prob be pumping flat out all winter too .. )

Pa ElGrande · 26-07-2022 08:28AM

brokenangel

Jul 26, 2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119387672#Comment_119387672
No they wont
it will just prove what they are saying for the last 20 years is right, building entire energy system based on coal/oil/gas is stupid, especially for ireland when we don’t have enough of those resources available to provide
If we had invested in renewable 20 years ago and run out grid on them we wouldn’t care now

This is absolute nonsense, electrical grids using wind and solar depend entirely on gas to maintain the grid stability and meet demand. All the wind and solar can do is delay when the gas must be consumed. There are no electrical grids anywhere in the world that majority depend exclusively on wind and solar, ALL must have backup systems. Even a small scale project like El Hierro has not managed it, a much larger grid (Germany) has no way to do this either.

This is from the Irish Academy of Engineering: NATURAL GAS - Essential for Ireland’s Future Energy Security

I don't know which illicit substances the politicians smoke in Germany, If you want to see how successful energiewende has been, then look at that countries nameplate capacity for wind, solar and hydro and then look at the actual % generated from those sources on the grid over the course of a year. German consumers pay the highest prices for electricity in Europe. Not only that, Norwegian consumers have found that their previously cheap and reliable hydro-electricity has been bid up by the inter-connectors to Germany (via Denmark) and the UK.

To borrow from an old dating joke, when designing an electrical grid you can pick two from the following matrix: Cheap, Reliable, Net Zero

asdfg87 · 26-07-2022 08:35AM

Germany needs a bailout

MrMusician18

Jul 26, 2022

So it looks like nordstream 1 is going to operate at 20% for a while before it's anticipated that the taps are turned off completely. In response to this, the European Commission have come up with a plan to (potentially mandatory) reduce has consumption across the bloc by 15% in an effort to bolster reserves before the winter. This has caused division across the EU with gas network isolated countries like Spain and Portugal resisting.
Spain's deputy PM even has come out with this line, which has strong echos of the German Finance minister during the eurozone crisis: “Unlike other countries, we Spaniards have not lived beyond our means from an energy point of view,”. Other countries that were at the blunt end of German ire during the Eurozone crisis aren't being particularly kind to the plan, stating that it's simply a rescue for Germany and bailing them out for their poor energy policy.
Ireland is also isolated physically from European network, so a 15% cut here wouldn't do anything but relieve supply pressure in the UK. The Irish governments position on this mandatory cut isn't clear however. Would such a sacrifice be palatable here to save the economy that charged us 6% on the bailout loans? - I have my doubts.

We are the nice boys of the world and we we will do as we are told.

When did we ever say NO?

brokenangel · 26-07-2022 08:39AM

Pa ElGrande

Jul 26, 2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119387773#Comment_119387773
This is absolute nonsense, electrical grids using wind and solar depend entirely on gas to maintain the grid stability and meet demand. All the wind and solar can do is delay when the gas must be consumed. There are no electrical grids anywhere in the world that majority depend exclusively on wind and solar, ALL must have backup systems. Even a small scale project like El Hierro has not managed it, a much larger grid (Germany) has no way to do this either.
This is from the Irish Academy of Engineering: NATURAL GAS - Essential for Ireland’s Future Energy Security
I don't know which illicit substances the politicians smoke in Germany, If you want to see how successful energiewende has been, then look at that countries nameplate capacity for wind, solar and hydro and then look at the actual % generated from those sources on the grid over the course of a year. German consumers pay the highest prices for electricity in Europe. Not only that, Norwegian consumers have found that their previously cheap and reliable hydro-electricity has been bid up by the inter-connectors to Germany (via Denmark) and the UK.
To borrow from an old dating joke, when designing an electrical grid you can pick two from the following matrix: Cheap, Reliable, Net Zero
https://cliscep.files.wordpress.com/2022/07/grid_flowchart.png

Wind and solar are just one type of renewable

We already have hydro but options like wave and methane are available but not invested in

The national herd could supply plenty of gas instead of been so reliant on UK etc.

We are not Germany. People seem to be obsessed with Germany and then use it as a reference to say we shouldn't invest in Ireland.

We could potentially reduce our reliance on gas to a minimal instead of been total reliant.

If the best option you can come up with in the middle of a crisis is to stick your fingers in your ears shouting "gas gas gas" then thats your choice

26-07-2022 08:51AM

Lessons I learn from this (same lesson 70’s oil crisis):

Dependence on a foreign power for energy security is crazy. Germany/Russia, Ireland/UK.

Those who made Germany abandon nuclear have endangered both Germany, European peace and the EU.

Ireland should have gone nuclear years ago.

Kermit.de.frog · 26-07-2022 08:51AM

When people go cold this winter all that green nonsense is going out the window.

Europe has been, despite the warnings, led down the road of leaving itself dangerously exposed to foreign sources of oil and gas while Green buffoons encouraged the closure of power plants and the blocking of resource exploitation in our own territories.

All I can say is brace yourselves folks. The civil unrest is coming in Europe this winter. Wouldn't want to be a green politician or environmentalist (among other groups).

touts · 26-07-2022 08:51AM

Germany asset stripped Ireland and Spain when it turned out that their pension funds had invested all their money in scams like Anglo Irish Bank. They forced the Irish and Spanish governments to nationalise those scams and then pay back in full and with winnings the gambling debts of those pension funds. Then to add insult to injury when all the "rainy day funds" and "pension reserve funds" had been emptied they came in to "bailout" the Irish government for the debts to German pension funds by giving them loans from the German taxpayer at crippling interest rates. It was as classic a shakedown as any gangland scam. the closest analogy I can think of is a drug dealer knocking on the door of some elderly parents to tell them their son owes him money and if they don't pay they will burn down the house. There are schools and hospitals still being build across the fatherland paid for by the Irish and Spanish taxpayers.

So yea. What goes around comes around. Let them freeze.

Pussyhands · 26-07-2022 08:51AM

Ursula and co. thought they had all the power with these sanctions yet Putin is 4 steps ahead of them all the time.

brokenangel · 26-07-2022 08:57AM

Kermit.de.frog

Jul 26, 2022

When people go cold this winter all that green nonsense is going out the window.
Europe has been, despite the warnings, led down the road of leaving itself dangerously exposed to foreign sources of oil and gas while Green buffoons encouraged the closure of power plants and the blocking of resource exploitation in our own territories.
All I can say is brace yourselves folks. The civil unrest is coming in Europe this winter. Wouldn't want to be a green politician or environmentalist (among other groups).

The "Green buffoons" wanted to invest in renewables. Not in foreign sources of oil and gas

Ouch Chinese Byrne · 26-07-2022 09:04AM

If Germany need a bailout then we should bail them out.

brickster69 · 26-07-2022 09:34AM

The circus is run by the clowns.

https://twitter.com/FirstSquawk/status/1551839439043047425

26-07-2022 09:35AM

touts

Jul 26, 2022

Germany asset stripped Ireland and Spain when it turned out that their pension funds had invested all their money in scams like Anglo Irish Bank. They forced the Irish and Spanish governments to nationalise those scams and then pay back in full and with winnings the gambling debts of those pension funds. Then to add insult to injury when all the "rainy day funds" and "pension reserve funds" had been emptied they came in to "bailout" the Irish government for the debts to German pension funds by giving them loans from the German taxpayer at crippling interest rates. It was as classic a shakedown as any gangland scam. the closest analogy I can think of is a drug dealer knocking on the door of some elderly parents to tell them their son owes him money and if they don't pay they will burn down the house. There are schools and hospitals still being build across the fatherland paid for by the Irish and Spanish taxpayers.
So yea. What goes around comes around. Let them freeze.

You have a point about your description of the bailout but it involved Irish scam artists / developers too.

I have to disagree about letting Germany freeze. The only beneficiary of that is the deranged imperialist Putin and that endangers all of Eastern Europe and Germany too.

Thelonious Monk · 26-07-2022 09:44AM

It might be the kick up the arse Europe needs to get off Russian gas. There may be hardship involved alright, but hardship used to be part and parcel of life, especially in times not too long ago in Germany. I'm sure they'll be fine.

Ouch Chinese Byrne · 26-07-2022 09:45AM

touts

Jul 26, 2022

Germany asset stripped Ireland and Spain when it turned out that their pension funds had invested all their money in scams like Anglo Irish Bank. They forced the Irish and Spanish governments to nationalise those scams and then pay back in full and with winnings the gambling debts of those pension funds. Then to add insult to injury when all the "rainy day funds" and "pension reserve funds" had been emptied they came in to "bailout" the Irish government for the debts to German pension funds by giving them loans from the German taxpayer at crippling interest rates. It was as classic a shakedown as any gangland scam. the closest analogy I can think of is a drug dealer knocking on the door of some elderly parents to tell them their son owes him money and if they don't pay they will burn down the house. There are schools and hospitals still being build across the fatherland paid for by the Irish and Spanish taxpayers.
So yea. What goes around comes around. Let them freeze.

The banks should have asset stripped the Irish public who couldn’t or refused to pay back loans/ mortgages arrears.

Unfortunately these bailouts caused these people to keep their assets with no consequences even though it was printed in black and white in their contracts.

brokenangel · 26-07-2022 09:54AM

Thelonious Monk

Jul 26, 2022

It might be the kick up the arse Europe needs to get off Russian gas. There may be hardship involved alright, but hardship used to be part and parcel of life, especially in times not too long ago in Germany. I'm sure they'll be fine.

Back in the early 2000's companies like Mainstream had conversations with Europe about a supergrid connecting everyone and using Solar/Wind/other renewable

This would move Europe off the total reliance on gas etc. This of course was all discussed and never introduced, so you have Spain now with too much solar power and cutting off people who have invested million in solar etc, yet Germany and France are struggling for power.

EOQRTL · 26-07-2022 09:58AM

Oh, what a shame.

And now here's Bob with the sports.....

brickster69 · 26-07-2022 10:02AM

It is not so much about Germans freezing it is about stopping German industry totally collapsing.

One example - On it's own the automobile industry uses 37% of Germany's Russian gas imports at full flow. Now add in steel, ceramics, chemicals, glass and everything else on top. What happens if Russian gas is turned off for a month, they have to use the storage or close.

When they announced the cancellation of Nordstream 2 it might turn out to be the biggest own goal in history. Why the **** did they agree to do that ?

Thelonious Monk · 26-07-2022 10:05AM

To be fair, to paraphrase Basil Faulty, Russia started it, they invaded Ukraine! Industry is reliant on it too and signs are we could be facing another recession down the tracks so probably wont be a good few years for Europe in general.

Pa ElGrande · 26-07-2022 10:07AM

brokenangel

Jul 26, 2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119387857#Comment_119387857
Wind and solar are just one type of renewable
We already have hydro but options like wave and methane are available but not invested in
The national herd could supply plenty of gas instead of been so reliant on UK etc.
We are not Germany. People seem to be obsessed with Germany and then use it as a reference to say we shouldn't invest in Ireland.
We could potentially reduce our reliance on gas to a minimal instead of been total reliant.
If the best option you can come up with in the middle of a crisis is to stick your fingers in your ears shouting "gas gas gas" then thats your choice

Wind and solar have been able to scale because of coal i.e. China, and the local incentives provided.
Irelands hydro options are already tapped out (4% generation)
Wave energy schemes have all failed, there are no viable projects or anything that can be run at scale in the pipeline.
Biogas from methane digesters - have you considered how to organise farming animals and farm operations so this can be done economically?

As regards German influence on Ireland, it is substantial.

Britain has gone, Germany de facto runs the EU. They are pushing the EUs Green new deal.
Irish Green party doctrine originates from the German Alliance 90/The Greens
Potsdam institute for climate impact research influences Irish universities, even the climate quango.
The Irish political establishment has their eye on the Green new deal money and is shaping climate legislation around that.

Danzy · 26-07-2022 10:11AM

Germany ran down its energy sources in favour of Russian gas, against all logic.

It placed a hostile dictatorship in near complete control of its energy policy.

No doubt Merkel and others were well rewarded for it but Germany must resolve this itself.

It is self inflicted, unfortunately it will effect us all to some degree and while Germany deserve a very cold winter, it will cost us all.

Danzy · 26-07-2022 10:13AM

brickster69

Jul 26, 2022

It is not so much about Germans freezing it is about stopping German industry totally collapsing.
One example - On it's own the automobile industry uses 37% of Germany's Russian gas imports at full flow. Now add in steel, ceramics, chemicals, glass and everything else on top. What happens if Russian gas is turned off for a month, they have to use the storage or close.
When they announced the cancellation of Nordstream 2 it might turn out to be the biggest own goal in history. Why the **** did they agree to do that ?

A mix of corruption, greed, treachery.

MrMusician18 · 26-07-2022 10:13AM

brickster69

Jul 26, 2022

It is not so much about Germans freezing it is about stopping German industry totally collapsing.
One example - On it's own the automobile industry uses 37% of Germany's Russian gas imports at full flow. Now add in steel, ceramics, chemicals, glass and everything else on top. What happens if Russian gas is turned off for a month, they have to use the storage or close.
When they announced the cancellation of Nordstream 2 it might turn out to be the biggest own goal in history. Why the **** did they agree to do that ?

The German government didn't seem to have much of a problem loading debt onto taxpayers in order to save their own bad investments. So while the funds did come, solidarity gas should come with a hefty premium.

If other more energy prudent countries EU countries have to cut back their energy usage in order to save Germany's skin, well those savings should be charged, with an appropriate markup, to the German government - in order that they "learn their lesson".

Solidarity didn't come cheap for Ireland, nor should it be for Germany.

Germany needs a bailout

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Ireland told: Take EU bailout or trigger crisis

Irish resisting EU bail-out pressure

Germany needs a bailout

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