Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

The problem with a 3/4 year gap would be they could be an athletes prime years.

It would also seem to be an admission by a sporting body that transwomen have an advantage and so to discourage the possibility of individuals transitioning just for sporting gain it would make the process onerous as an attempt at a de facto ban rather than implementing an actual ban.

The rules themselves would then become a (metaphorical) stick to beat transwomen who transitioned for personal reasons and later competed.

The problem with compromise is it needs both sides to compromise. There doesn't seem to be a willingness for the TRA side to compromise as they see compromise as discrimination.

It’s relevant to the thread in light of FINAs regulations that athletes wishing to be considered eligible to compete in the women’s category and set FINA World Records, etc must be able to demonstrate to FINA’s comfortable satisfaction that they have not experienced any part of male puberty beyond Tanner Stage 2 or before the age of 12:

Male-to-female transgender athletes (transgender women) and athletes with 46 XY DSD whose legal gender and/or gender identity is female are eligible to compete in the women’s category in FINA competitions and to set FINA World Records in the women’s category in FINA competitions and in other events recognised by FINA if they can establish to FINA’s comfortable satisfaction that they have not experienced any part of male puberty beyond Tanner Stage 2 or before age 12, whichever is later.

https://resources.fina.org/fina/document/2022/06/19/525de003-51f4-47d3-8d5a-716dac5f77c7/FINA-INCLUSION-POLICY-AND-APPENDICES-FINAL-.pdf

The tweet appears to be Stonewall’s attempt to further the idea that humans development of their gender identity is firmly established far earlier than it would be considered ethical to provide them with medication which would inhibit puberty, thereby ensuring that they would be compliant with the regulations set by FINA and any other sports governing bodies which will undoubtedly follow suit.

Both organisations motivations and reasoning are perverse and unethical, IMO.

I don't know whether that is true about the US, but it's not correct for here. Yes, kids everywhere drop out of sport around that age, but it's not as stark as that. It's worse for girls than boys, and it's worse for kids in lower socio-economic groups.

Data from the Dept. of Education, Sport Ireland & others:

"80% of primary school pupils participated in community sport at least once a week 58% of post primary school pupils participated in community sport at least once a week"

No way that's true. The page you linked mentions "burnout" rather than injury which is a lot more vague and potentially the stated reason when more likely, puberty, the transition from primary to post-primary and general teenage development point to a plethora of other reasons why some kids drop out from sport and it's little to do with pushy parents pushing children over the edge. I'd say also, that while kids generally shouldn't be pushed into competition too young or specialising too early, some kids do thrive in that environment.

Not sure what you're doing here, but sounds a bit like you're trying to paint parents who encourage young kids at sport in the worst possible light. "Legacy athletes" 🙄

How many children do you reckon drop out of sports because they’re afraid they might see a willy in the locker rooms? Because that was my point, in contrast to the idea that that’s what would cause a decline in girls participating in sports. I think we can agree there are far greater reasons which explain why girls are already dropping out of sports.

What I’m doing there, is exactly what it says. I’m well aware of the difference between parents who encourage young children in sports, and parents who attempt to fulfil their ambitions vicariously through their children.

Wouldn’t matter if there were willies as far as the eye could see tbh, I don’t think anyone here needs lessons in biology to determine that willies don’t have minds of their own. In terms of safeguarding, that’s not determined by biology, anatomy or physiology either, it’s determined by behaviour, and to that end, I’d be far more concerned about someone engaging in this sort of behaviour -

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40038332.amp

Ne’er a willy in sight.

The argument couldn’t be simpler Podge - if they actually wanted to, they’d find a way to make it work. Instead they appear to be focused on finding excuses as to why it shouldn’t even be considered.

I’m familiar with the excuses, and they don’t stack up to much, all things actually considered -

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357259/

Instead of suggesting I should try and see beyond my own biases, perhaps you could take your own advice?

I’m well aware that people involved not just in sports, but in any domain, are highly motivated around issues such as competitive fairness and so on. It’s why I don’t imagine they all think the same, because they’re not all coming from the same background as each other.

It’s why I don’t just rely on the opinions of sports people or scientists or second-rate sociologists or the number of elite athletes who share my opinions regarding the importance of including people who are transgender in sports, who are even more highly motivated to participate in competitions, than those athletes who already see it as their entitlement to win, and to exclude other people from competing.

You're making another assumption (that I haven't looked beyond the pure sporting perspective) which is again just plain wrong.

I didn’t make that assumption at all, because I take it as a given that you’re not any different from anyone else in that I’m sure you have experience in many domains, and l’m acutely aware of the fact that you have experience and a vast wealth of knowledge in domains that I will never have and couldn’t possibly ever have. I just didn’t think I needed to state the obvious is all.

Transgender athletes are not being excluded from competing in sports. They are being excluded from competing in the female sex category. That is completely different. You can repeat your falsehoods as many times as you like. That will not make them any truer.

I’m perfectly happy to admit that’s not true either, but I’m not going to accuse you of falsehoods when it’s clear your intent was to suggest that their inclusion is far more nuanced than that.

It is crystal clear you disregard science. No surprise to hear that.

It shouldn’t come as a surprise, when it’s yourself who says it. At least I know what I said, and what I didn’t say. I don’t disregard science, I do disregard pseudoscientific nonsense masquerading as scientific evidence put forth as reasoning as to why people who are transgender should be excluded from competitions, like the claim by Niall Moyna in this interview that it would be unfair to have six foot women playing in the WNBA -

Aye, clearly Niall came up a bit short on that one -

https://sportsvirsa.com/tallest-female-basketball-players/

Well, you can say that again....

I’m familiar with the excuses, and they don’t stack up to much, all things actually considered.

FiNA's rule aims towards fairness and the overwhelming bulk of participants. There will be an open category from which nobody is banned and TBH it's the least worst option. They may have erred for some people but we are a very long way off establishing what advantages might remain for those who do transition.

12 is the approximate age of onset of puberty, some will begin earlier some later but for a sporting organisation to set a clear simple cut off point it works.

Children beginning to transition before the age of consent is a medical ethics question which sporting organisations cannot and should not be involved in and the impact of what category of sport the patient may compete in later in life should not come into it. Such a consideration would probably be unethical anyway.

That would be the exception rather than the rule though and rare.

Your link even says

Precocious puberty is when a child's body begins changing into that of an adult (puberty) too soon. When puberty begins before age 8 in girls and before age 9 in boys, it is considered precocious puberty.

Precocious puberty also affects less than 1% of the American population (that is before age 8 in girls and 9 in boys rather than age 3).

https://www.nichd.nih.gov/health/topics/puberty

According to both the HSE the average age of onset of puberty in girls is 11 and 12 in boys.

Well interestingly too trans children are exceptionally rare as well. But it’s an issue for you?