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The Collapse in Home Ownership was Fine Gael Policy

2

Comments

  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,351 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    It works fine in Vienna, I would remove laws around tenders etc from the provision of social housing so its for the greater good not profits

    So by removing laws surrounding tenders,, we would have to leave the EU - how would that affect the jobs market?

    Also, by removing competition, how will this affect the development costs?

    We could easily set up social rents that they come from source, ie directly from social welfare, pensions or wages.

    So another department needs to be set up. What about those homeowners who were paying a mortgage and you evicted when CPOing their home - where will they live? What if they can't afford one of the then available properties?

    As for evicting homeowners, two farmers got evicited to build Crumlin, a number of cottage got evicted to build Coolock, yet tens of thousands got housed.

    How many farms are left in Dublin now? Maybe you'd have us build on our parks instead?

    If the housing situation stays as it is now, we will see a massive swing towards populism in this country. You cant expect people to support a system they have no skin in, and within the next decade or two renters will be the majority. In the Dublin City Council area renters are already the majority.

    There is already a swing towards populism whereby people are looking towards parties that will allow them to avoid paying for stuff. Water charges for example. Now people are being bribed with the idea that they will be able to get a house regardless of their income.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,351 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    But you haven't answered my question: in which of those countries can a cash register operator (to use your example) buy their own home?



  • Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Housing99


    They cant, they either live in Poverty or social housing.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,351 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    So your thread blaming FG policy for a collapse in home ownership is based on your dislike of FG because you can't afford to buy. However, I take it that were you to move abroad and do the same job, you still wouldn't be able to buy a house.

    This all ignores the fact that your entire opening argument is based on a decades old policy originally implemented by FF which sold off a lot of the social homes and kept funding for local authorities low so they couldn't afford to replace that stock. Ok then.



  • Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Housing99


    I think that Fine Gael are happy with having most people rent. I think FF want more home owners as they have a more working class base and have been destroyed in the polls over this issue, but they are too tied to the market and prices staying high to change things.

    In the English speaking world I could not buy in any major city as they have all gone neo liberal, but I could in most European countries. I dont want to be forced to emigrate though


    Now If I may ask you.

    What is the solution to the housing crisis if you dont agree with social housing en masse?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,351 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I've already stated my belief on solving the housing issue (I wouldn't call it a crisis but that's another discussion!)...

    There are far too many factors involved for a simple solution. Everything needs to change. Our planning needs to stop the one off rural housing and urban sprawl where there are no transport links. We need to reduce the dependency on commuting by car. The biggest problem with a long-term plan which probably would solve the housing issue here is that, politically, we don't do long term!

    FWIW, I have absolutely no issue with social housing. What I do have an issue with is the idea that spontaneous ideas are presented as a solution when in fact that would only create more issues.



  • Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Housing99


    How is a massive collapse in home ownership not a crisis? Do you think renting is a comfortable way to live in Ireland?


    From my vantage this is the biggest social catastrophe in modern history across the English speaking world thanks to the free market policies started in the 80s, and could well collapse western society



  • Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Housing99


    Often said, but can I ask where these country folk work? If you work in agri or a trade ok. But my office is full of people from the country who had to move to Dublin to work in a profession, and the 40k salaries they earn cant buy homes



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,660 ✭✭✭✭For Forks Sake


    The Constitution is not a dumping ground for difficult issues of the day



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,660 ✭✭✭✭For Forks Sake




  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,351 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    In what way has there been a collapse in home ownership as most homes are still privately owned?

    However, whilst a lot of new properties are funded as build-to-lets this doesn't cause a "collapse" in home ownership. One could ask, if that funding wasn;t there, would those properties even have been built?


    I also note how you've completely ignored my thoughts on a solution for the housing issue but followed a trajectory towards conspiracy theory of a globalist society.



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,902 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    There is so much wrong with your theory, OP, that I don't even know where to start.

    The current housing catastrophe (and it is one) is the result of a combination of factors including legacy issues from the property bubble and crash and some of which are beyond the direct control of the government. The financialisation and marketisation of housing systems in the West coupled with neo-liberal economic policy has been a disaster.

    I teach urban geography and housing at university level and am published in the area so I think I know the deeply complex Irish housing system a little better than you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Housing99


    Accord to the ERSI only 10% of under 35s currently are home owners (with or without mortgage) they project that in this cohort 1 in 2 will never buy. Compared to 90% owning in the current generation of pensioners. Thats a collapse



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭Mike Murdock


    Now go find the 25-50k skilled tradespeople you'll need to implement your plan. Not only find them, but also house them too. That is a serious shortage we face here.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,351 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    But you're now breaking down the ownership figures whereas the thread title states a collapse in home ownership and there wasn no comparison of under-35s against other age groups.

    So if you are looking at ownership amongst specific age groups, have you the ownership trends for these age groups? Have you comparable trends in other countries?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Housing99


    So what point are you trying to make?

    My dad could buy a house in a decent area on 1 income of a average job in 1985, I cant even get an apartment in a similar role (accountancy), older cousins all could in the celtic tiger.

    None of my peers in late 20s or early 30s can buy in Dublin either. No one I went to school or college with has bought. So for my generation this is an end of the world issue and is causing us massive distress and mental health issues.

    And yes other countries have the same problem. Capitalism has failed to deliver basic needs to people



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    The actual numbers would disagree with you. The majority of houses built last year was bought by people and not companies.

    People are buying houses every day of the week.

    This rubbish been floated on the internet that nobody can buy a home is not reflected in what is actually happening. You are trying to say you talk for an entire generation which is a big statement to make. Especially when the numbers of houses sold to people totally disagree with you

    The problem is lack of supply.

    As I said on other threads, contact the TD and party you support and ask them to stop blocking houses in Ireland. The days of blocking houses should be over and done with, especially when parties are doing it for political gain.



  • Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Housing99


    The average income in Ireland is 48k, apartments start a minimum of 200k in Dublin. Single people on normal incomes cannot buy. Couples on normal incomes struggle to get a 3 bed house as they start at 250 plus. So no, its not rubbish. Most working people especially singles cant buy in Dublin anymore. And Wicklow or Kildare are no different.

    If this wasnt reflective of reality we wouldnt have political upheaval about it



  • Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Housing99


    Im opposed to build to rent, and Im opposed to private housing on public land. Neither provide the housing thats needed.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,351 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I'm not trying to make a point. You started this by claiming a collapse in ownership. Now you're claiming that the collapse in for one particular age group so I'm asking to see trends not whether your cousin was able to buy at a time when banks were tripping over themselves to lend money to people without proper stress testing.

    As for this being an "end of the world issue" - really?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    Strangely exactly what a certain opposition supporter would say

    The number disagree with you and the majority of homes got bought by people last year.

    You said home ownership is down, then you said it was a certain group. Now you are trying to say single and couple can't buy houses and talk about average income?????

    You are all over the palce



  • Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Housing99


    Of course its end of the world issue, end of capitalism anyway

    How can someone have any property or future in this country without owning a home or having social housing?



  • Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Housing99


    The majority of apartments built in Dublin are build to rent.

    The average income cant buy a apartment in Dublin.

    Do you think its acceptable for hundreds of thousands of people to have to rent?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    That's because it was the backend of nowhere. Half the of Dublin was derelict in the 80s. It wasn't a European capital like it is now.



    Find a city anywhere in Europe like Dublin in the 80s, and you'll have no problem getting a place.



  • Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Housing99


    That footage is from the day they filmed the riot scene of in the name of the father, it was made look that way



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    No they are not. As I said the majority are bought by home owners.

    This is too similar to what is floating around the web, you don't happen to be part of Sinn Fein online supporters by any chance?



  • Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Housing99


    Key Findings:

    • Ireland has experienced a marked drop in homeownership rates in recent years. This has been particularly acute for younger-aged households, with the share of 25-34 year olds living independently who own their own home more than halving between 2004 and 2019, falling from 60 per cent to just 27 per cent.
    • In comparison with current retirees (aged 65+) where the homeownership rate is around 90 per cent, homeownership rates are around 10 percentage points lower (approximately 80 per cent) for those currently aged 55-64 and 45-54; this differential is unlikely to close substantially for these groups given their position in the lifecycle.
    • There is greater uncertainty over the 25-34 age group given their age and lifecycle earnings prospects. Nonetheless, the simulated rate of homeownership is lower again for the youngest age group, 25-34, with approximately one-in-two households likely to become homeowners in the majority of scenarios explored.
    • Lower rates of homeownership are likely to lead to substantially higher income poverty rates after-housing costs (AHC) in retirement. The research finds that AHC income poverty rates for those approaching retirement would reach 31 per cent under a low future homeownership scenario, 28 per cent under a medium future homeownership scenario, and 21 per cent under a high future homeownership scenario, compared to 14 per cent at present.

    https://www.esri.ie/news/future-retirees-likely-to-face-lower-homeownership-which-may-pose-challenges-for-retirement



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    You're blaming the govt that came after the financial meltdown not the ones that caused the financial meltdown.

    Make sense....



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,351 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Well from some of your suggestioons, you seem to be proposing some form of socialist solution - am I correct?

    You're happy to end competition rules and happy for the state to take control of house building.

    I can't see many going for that and will continue with the status quo where both our traditional governing parties (FF & FG) along with the likes of SF will bullshit the electorate with promises of solving the issue but all the while pandering to the loudest group and pretty much making the situation worse.

    However, it being an "end of the world issue " or the "end of capitalism", you need to lay off whatever it is that you're taking there!



  • Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Housing99


    Im not a member of SF, Im actually a social democrat voter.

    Im am late 20s, earning 40k, living at home working a second weekend job to help save. Saving over 2000 a month and facing having to move to Navan or Drogheda to buy and very very pissed off about it



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  • Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Housing99


    Yes, I want to see the Vienna model implemented. 70% of their population lives in public housing tied to 20% of their earnings

    I also want to see an end to multi nationals using Ireland as a tax haven

    I want a socialist country because the current one is a horrible disaster for young people



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




  • Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Housing99


    Since people are amazing claiming we dont have a housing crisis, why are SF so popular. If everyone could buy a home where they work (ie no crisis) then people would be supporting the status quo



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 15,237 Mod ✭✭✭✭FutureGuy


    The government didn't make lots of couples spend 25-30 grand on their weddings before not being able to afford their home.

    Because god forbid we have a bit of personal accountability in the country.

    Of course not everyone did that - just my take on seeing some people moaning about it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    For years it was the same for everyone, now everyone expects a house for free. When I first started working in Dublin I would have loved a free house handed to me but it wasn't.

    My parents got told at 16 and 17 to get out of the house, both went to London and met in London. No jobs in Ireland.

    You can borrow 140k. So get a pay rise to 50k and you can buy in Dublin(even at 140k you might get a place if you are quick)

    So if I was you I would be in the office tomorrow asking your manager what you need to do to get a pay rise, explain why etc and most companies would love to see that initiative



  • Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Housing99


    I live in that if it means not having to up root my life to a town hours away with no support network to have a home, you sound like a boomer with no idea of what its like for younger workers



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    You're lucky. A lot of previous generations had no choice but to emigrate.

    You're complaining about going 30 mins up the road on a motorway.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    In fairness to the OP it really is a disaster for a lot of younger folks with rents going through the roof. They're getting rode half to death with rents.


    Most of the homeowning voters though bought years ago and don't give a b*llix. They don't see a problem at all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    I was 17 and I left home, first to college miles away and working every day/night/weekend to pay for it. I actually got hired in college so straight from college to work.

    I was lucky to get home 2-3 times a year. "support network", you are in your f**king late 20's

    My company hires people from all over the World, in late 20s they come to Ireland to get a different experience yet you are complaining because you might have to move a few mins away from Mammy



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    If you think thats bad try it in another country with a different language.

    But you won't make that effort.



  • Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Housing99


    Well its not 30 mins since between a car loan, insurance and fuel a car would cost the guts of 800 a month, so I couldnt afford to drive into Dublin. My plan is to get a folding bike and take a train or bus to work. So thats near 90 mins each way door to door from Navan or Drogheda.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    At your age you should be looking to travel, I done it in early 30's along with more or less everyone I knew, done a lap around the World and then came to settle down.

    You will get a better perspective on the World once you travel I find.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    Rent is one thing. But at least there's work. No point having cheap houses if you can get a job to buy it. Its why so many emigrated.

    Most Homeowners lived through far harder times. That's why.

    Also chasing housing in this market is putting a chain around your neck. Its dumb. Go find a fair higher quality of life away from all the high prices.



  • Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Housing99


    Im 30 in less than 6 months. I did my travel at 21 and 22. Im way past that. My older siblings and counsins, parents etc all had their homes at 25 ffs



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,325 ✭✭✭howiya


    You're currently saving 2k a month and hoping to get a mortgage that's 800 a month. You'd be well able to afford the car loan.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Housing99


    Id much rather no jobs and social housing than lots of jobs and no housing.

    Raising a generation with the best education and the expectations of life that comes with it, and sending them into a country where they cannot even has the basics their parents had is causing massive mental health issues

    Id have rather left school at 15, then Id feel at least poverty would be normal for the situation



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    Which you could have with a 10k salary increase....probably even less....45k would get you a mortgage to cover an apartment in Dublin

    Also I don't get this "xyz had house by age XX", its not a competition and in reality that is why we had the crash so bad, people running around with unrealistic idea's and buying houses just to keep up with brothers/sisters etc and then never able to afford it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    "poverty" 😂

    F**k me I doubt you have travelled. You haven't a clue what poverty looks like.



  • Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Housing99


    Actually the mortgage Im allowed is more in the region of 490 a month.


    Im saving 2000 because Im working two jobs and stopped go out, also rent free and bill free at home while I save. When I move it will be this:

    Wage: 2630

    Mortgage: 490

    Life Insurance or Home (forget which one but its required when you have a mortgage): 130

    Broadband + gas + electricity: 300

    Paying back dad for 5 years (hes giving me 15,000 loan when I have the other 25,000 I need saved): 500

    Savings for holidays and other expenses (boiler, clothes, christmas etc): 350

    So 860 left, if I got a car Id only have food, Id never be able to afford to leave the house, petrol, a car loan, insurance and tax would eat up 600 + of that



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    this isnt the same OP that was obsessing over what society thought of them because they didnt own a home last month is it



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