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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,949 ✭✭✭cute geoge


    Last year debating over in other forum about cheap food ,we said it would take a famine or a really global catastrophia to raise the price of food .Now food is doubling in price and the greens want to restrict the production of food in this country ,you could not make this up really .Let them at it ,people wont be long coming to their senses when it hits their pocket big time .Food has not got half enough expensive yet and farming will be back in the big time before too long and rightly so!!!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    it might be voluntary right now, with incentives in place, but if farmers don’t move toward it, targets will be imposed on them. They’d be stupid to not engage



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    It seems like there is an agenda to kill Irish agriculture as we know it... herald in a recession and soon after the all-familiar vulture funds will be buying up our fields on the cheap because very few will be able to afford to farm it anymore.

    It's the plantation of Ireland V2.0. Have no doubts about it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,069 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Is that just more magical green B.S. thinking, or have you anything to back it up ?

    I have already posted here the drop in yield farming organically over 22 seasons from Sri Lanka`s Agriculture Research Institute and the same drop in yield over a 5 year period in a Swiss study carried out by the University of Zurich.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Exactly.

    What will likely happen is the EU/govt funding they get will all become more and more contingent on emissions reduction.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,069 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    If the incentives are more profitable, then like any business some may voluntary do it.

    But the simple realities are that outside of the Green Party zealot vote, every other political party in the country would be committing hari-kari attempting to impose these targets and they know that. Especially when other countries are increasing their herd by many multiples of what Irish farmers are being asked to reduce theirs by.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    You'll have revolts, a financially poor people you may be able to somewhat govern, a hungry people are a whole different breed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,352 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    If you are referring to what the minister said on prime time, that's not what he said. He said no one would be forced to cut numbers but that doesn't mean farmers won't be incentivised to cut numbers.

    The average age of an Irish farmer is 55-56 and over a third are over 65. I suspect these older farmers will be encouraged into land afforestation, rewilding, low stock organic and other low input activities along with a decent pension.

    For the remainder of farmers they will have to modify farming practices. Clover as a natural fertilizer will become the norm. Farms will be expected to become near self sufficient in energy - for example, milk cooling using low energy methods rather than refrigeration, solar and wind to power fixed machinery. Anaerobic digestion has been mentioned too but that requires a good bit of babysitting to work properly imo. Lastly, use of feed additives like seaweed is likely to be mandatory to reduce biogenic methane.

    Some of these technologies and work practices will require capital investment, yield will fall too, but this should be countered somewhat by increased market price and lower inputs. The 25% is achievable but it will take a lot of coercion.

    That said the die is cast now on this and Farmers are not going to win the carbon fight here at home. They should however be turning their attention to the global market. They should be intensively lobbying for punitive import taxes on food products imported from other states or regions that have higher carbon or worse environmental credentials.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,049 ✭✭✭Mecanudo


    "if the EU has real aims of reducing emissions they should ban the import of emission heavy foods like beef from these places"

    For emissions heavy does it matter whether its avocados or beef being produced in cleared rain forest?

    One of the main issues is farming out emissions to countries outside the EU. If a country has similar standards then fine. But the EU also needs to look at its own security of food supply and not penalise food production of its member states where those countries are producing for consumption within the EU.

    The situation in Ukraine should be a wake up call to the EU block as a whole. Oddly enough that seems to have gone out the window here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,069 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    E.U. CAP programme has been agreed until 2027, and the E.U Agricultural Commissioner just 2 months ago said the E.U. has no intentions of cutting cattle numbers, food security was their concern. So no joy for you there.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Sorry for being able to do basic arithmetic, and sorry that you don't actually understand what the word 'impotent' means but just like that it rhymes with incompetent.

    Perhaps you should stick to the simple rhymes.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    KPMG's report was commissioned by the IFJ. If you'd read the report (a novel idea, actually reading up on a topic you're waffling about) the disclaimer at the very beginning states:

    The information in this Document is based upon information provided by the Recipient and reflects prevailing conditions and our views as of this date, all of which are accordingly subject to change. In preparing this Document, we have relied upon and assumed, without independent verification, the accuracy and completeness of any information made available by the Recipient.

    Let's pretend that it's a serious economic report by actual economists, rather than the notoriously incompetent and corrupt KPMG. They calculate that the requirement for 30% cuts, will lead to a reduction in herd size of 18% to 22% for Dairy and Beef farmers. Somehow, a ~20% reduction in herd size for but one agricultural, foresty and fishing sector leads to an overall 20% reduction in employment in the entire sector, including cereals, grains, vegetables, fruit, poultry, pork, foresty.

    This is obviously nonsense. Would you like to know how they estimated these job losses? So would I! Unfortunately, in an 111 page 'report', they couldn't be bothered to explain how they estimate anything of meaning. Do they include any of the proposed grants and mitigation schemes that are aimed at supporting farm income? Why no they don't.

    As someone who actually studied economics and worked hard to educate themselves rather than wallowing in and then weaponising their ignorance on online forums to try feel smart:

    Brazilian beef production is exogenous to Irish beef production. You (and others) are treating it as endogenous. Beef exports to the EU make up a tiny proportion of Brazilian beef exports, and an even smaller proportion of overall Brazilian beef production. Brazilian beef production has been increasing since ~2002.

    Have you ever seen brazilian beef in an Irish grocery store? It's 3 years since the scare stories about Mercosur and I'm yet to see it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,873 ✭✭✭amacca


    It definitely appears to be fantasy land stuff!


    In my grandfather's time it was one year in 6 you could have a wheat crop, the rest of the time it was back in pasture to allow the land to recover....and we are not talking yields at the level of today either


    I'd be very interested to see how it can produce to the same level after 10 years......there must be a lot of stuff not factored in etc


    Perhaps an individual or a family with an acre or two, a cow for milk, pigs chickens etc, use of FYM, composting etc you could become self sustaining ...with a **** ton of hard work....you couldn't have any other job though and it wouldn't be a model for commercial production to sustain anything like the kind of lives people lead now...it would be mostly looking after your own needs...maybe sell a small amount of excess.


    I quite like the idea above personally but I doubt there would be mass enthusiasm for it and I'm not sure I'd like it when the reality set in...+ I wouldn't be anxious to have anyone seriously suggesting it as policy with their hands anywhere near the levers of power...



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,352 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    Mercosur hasn't been ratified yet, some doubt it ever will be.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    2019 was when the IFA, IFJ and various captive politicians started scaremongering about cheap, low quality brazilian meat in Irish supermarkets. Brazilian beef exports have been increasing to the EU (making up ~40-45% of EU beef imports) and yet somehow, despite all the grandiose claims, they are still strangely absent from Irish supermarkets. Just as they would be if we started gradually cutting our herd size.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Hormone fed beef is not allowed into the single market. Beef for export to the EU has to meet the same standards as beef produced in the EU



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    I'm sure you can pay your way around that In SA. Unless the EU has boots on the ground checking I don't believe a word of it. It's kinda like fast fashion. India shows you a fancy nice factory where they don't produce the product. I'm alarmed people can be this naive.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1




  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    It's just a set of targets for now, nothing else, for all sectors. There is lots to be worked out and and put in place. Nobody, including those in agriculture, knows just how all of this is going to work over the next decade.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭thinkabouit


    Would love to no what other businesses are being asked to reduce emissions by 25%



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,049 ✭✭✭Mecanudo


    Ah yes the "how many cows have you milked" argument!

    Brilliant!

    Let me consult the family farm records. It might take a while.



  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    So essentially a few years from now we could be eating more Brazilian beef and getting our little pat on the back from the EU for reduced emissions while global emissions will have increased.

    Great plan...



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,069 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Seeing as you are the economist and know more than KPMG apparently then why don`t you tell us how much this would add to our economy and numbers employed. More or less than Brazil increasing their herd numbers by 24 million by 2030. You could also throw in how much of a global reduction in GHG cutting our herds while Brazil increases theirs will result in. I mean it`s all about global emissions is it not ?

    Looking forward to your expert analysis, but I suspect that even you know these proposed cuts are B.S. and your post is nothing more than a little hissy fit.



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    It's a lot easier for most sectors to do that anyway and many have already gone down that path, some very quickly. There is already plenty of technology and there are grants available to support such actions. Aviation and agriculture are the two toughest to crack IMO.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,049 ✭✭✭Mecanudo


    Not only that but it was the usual suspects in the Green Party who pushed the target of slashing emissions by half when the already ambitious EU target of cutting emissions by 30 per cent compared with 2005 levels was more than enough to be getting on with.

    Why does it take external media to highlight the insanity of allowing the greens anywhere near our national legislation. The Climate Action Plan 2021 they've religiously pursued seeks a cut in electricity emissions of between 62%-81%. How the fuq will that happen when the relentless pushing of unreliable renewables means we continously have to use gas, coal and everything else just to keep the lights on?

    And its not just Ireland. The exact same issue is effecting all European countries which do not have Nuclear energy.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cut-down-on-cows-but-our-irish-farms-feed-the-world-5hndlf92j



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    No other sector has such a low target to reach, others are a lot more despite having significantly less emissions. Agri got off lightly

    There is still the land use sector to be given a target and as the above only equals 43% emissions reduction by 2030,that sector will be required to make up the remaining 8% to get us to 51% reduction by 2030.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,049 ✭✭✭Mecanudo


    When all the targets are utterly unrealistic - does it really matter what the figures are?

    Why has Green Party religously pushed the target of slashing emissions by half when the already ambitious EU target of cutting emissions by 30 per cent compared with 2005 levels was more than enough to be getting on with?

    And then there's a constant refusal by greens here to acknowledge the role agriculture and forestry has in carbon sequestration. That electricity generation by renewables is a disaster. That taxing industry and people into the ground is not a solution to anything. Simply more head in the sand approaches to reality to promote green ideology over reality.

    Thing is it boils down to the greens attempting to become the replacement for religion, where we are the worst sinners and must have the worst punishments in order to show what good little boys and girls we all are. They need to get a grip.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,069 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    What point are you attempting to make ?

    Ireland`s beef exports have to be cut because of E.U. emissions targets while Brazilian beef exports make up 40-45% of EU imports from the same animal producing the same emissions, and shipped half way around the world after being farmed by slashing and burning the Amazon forest. But that as all fine and dandy because you haven`t spotted any Brazilian meat in an Irish supermarket!

    With you being an economist, then there must be sound economic reasoning for that. And as a green supporter one also that reduces global emissions, but not being an intellectual heavyweight like your good self, I`ll be damned but I just cannot see either of them.

    Perhaps you would be good enough to explain.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭thinkabouit




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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭thinkabouit


    How is it easier?

    Name some sectors that have gone down that path please?



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