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Did the lockdown policy cause the surge of hepatitis cases among children?

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  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    This is literally what lots of people wanted and it was pointed out to them many times that lockdown would do huge damage to society.

    Most of the issues you mention were caused by lockdown, not COVID.

    Zero COVID was never an option.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,491 ✭✭✭fun loving criminal


    Nobody wanted lockdown. There are staff out now with covid causing supply issues. So supply issues wasn't due to just lockdown.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,296 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Take a look at Australia and nz now and see how they are getting on with covid. Spoiler alert, it isnt too good. Their lockdowns and strict border closures did nothing but delay the inevitable and they do have the detrimental immune effects too caused by social distancing and lockdowns to deal with too. The flu is running rampant there now also due to a lack of exposure in the past couple of years. Zero covid could never happen. Not without literally destroying society anyway. I'm sure in the years to come it will be looked back on as complete madness and hysteria.



  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Were are staff out? Are they sick or just out due to isolation requirements? Most likely the latter in which case it's more self inflicted issues.

    People did want lockdown so they could feel safe from COVID. They just didn't realize all the negative effects it would cause.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,751 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Review of research and data on childhood hepatitis of unknown origin discussing past Covid infections or co infection causing inflammation or persistent gut Covid infection causing an autoimmune imbalance.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,296 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    The BBC link from today specifically states that UK researchers have ruled out covid and covid vaccines as a mechanism



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,751 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Yes , thanks , saw that . Don't know where they got that from from though . Covid vaccines ruled out a while back ,but nothing definite yet about covid infection being ruled out as cause or catalyst .

    Some researchers think that it is viral coinfection whether it be 2 adenoviral strains , or covid and adenovirus , acting as catalyst for auto immune mediated inflammation of the liver .

    Be good to see the research that clip is based on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭walus


    They are associating an adeno-associated virus together with an adeno or herpes virus with this acute hepatitis outbreak in small kids.

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.07.19.22277425v1.full.pdf

    Looks like a co-infection of two viruses is required for this to happen. Since it is happening only for young kids, one hypothesis could be that they did not develop immunity to those viruses as their exposure to them was delayed by the measures that were taken to deal with covid, especially lockdowns. Now they have to deal with multiple viral infections at the same time without prior immunity to many of them.

    ”Where’s the revolution? Come on, people you’re letting me down!”



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,560 ✭✭✭political analyst


    According to that article, Prof Emma Thomson said:

    "Larger studies are urgently needed to investigate the role of AAV2 in paediatric hepatitis cases. We also need to understand more about seasonal circulation of AAV2, a virus that is not routinely monitored - it may be that a peak of adenovirus infection has coincided with a peak in AAV2 exposure, leading to an unusual manifestation of hepatitis in susceptible young children."



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,296 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    And just prior to that it is also stated:

    One of the investigators, Prof Judith Breuer, an expert in virology, at University College London and Great Ormond Street Hospital, said: "During the lockdown period when children were not mixing, they were not transmitting viruses to each other.

    "They were not building up immunity to the common infections they would normally encounter.

    "When the restrictions were lifted, children began to mix, viruses began to circulate freely - and they suddenly were exposed with this lack of prior immunity to a whole battery of new infections."



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,205 ✭✭✭Spudman_20000


    Can't imagine dousing kids in hand sanitizer helped their immune systems either. All for an airborne virus, ridiculous.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭walus


    There is a larger picture to be considered as well. In many 3rd world countries due to lockdown measures kids have not received their regular vaccines yet. Those routine vaccines that are to protect them from all those devastating but preventable diseases associated with an early stage childhood were simply not administered in time. There is a serious concern out there that mortality of kids under 5 years of age will hit levels that have not been seen in decades.

    It is sad to see these secondary and third level effects of 'dealing with covid' policies unfolding in front of our eyes. As I have been saying this since 2020, it is the kids and young people who will pay the greatest price for this. No doubt about it.

    Post edited by walus on

    ”Where’s the revolution? Come on, people you’re letting me down!”



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,560 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Have those public-health experts who called for lockdowns not been asked about the recent cases of hepatitis?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,751 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    There are parents not bringing their children for regular vaccinations because of antivax sentiment over Covid vaccines.

    Maybe it's time to ask these people how they feel about children not being protected against ordinary childhood illnesses , not to mention Covid ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,275 ✭✭✭CruelSummer


    This has nothing to do with Covid vaccines - as you stated yourself earlier in this thread. They are next to useless for children who are not at risk of serious illness from Covid - all the data backs this up. Look at HPRA data - 1 in 2,200 children suffer serious side effects from the vaccines that don’t prevent infection in children (January data) - and this is an underestimate as more information is now rolling in suggesting higher figures. 1 in 3,000 children might get the inflammatory response (Delta variant figures) which is being reported at a much lower rate with the Omicron strain if infected with Covid.

    These hepatitis cases are a mystery - but they are beginning to see a clear pattern between an adenovirus and perhaps another virus infecting concurrently on naive immune systems as my GP recently explained. Many children’s immune systems are very vulnerable following two years of hand sanitising, masks and not mixing - all for a disease they are not at risk from.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭walus


    There is a good correlation between adeno-associated virus + adeno or herpes virus be the cause of the hepatitis. There is also a genetic factor which would suggest that about 15% of people would be at risk if infected with such.

    There is another interesting thing going on in the background that many are not aware of. The excess deaths.

    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Excess_mortality_-_statistics#Excess_mortality_in_the_EU_between_January_2020_and_May_2022

    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/images/8/8c/Tab01_Excess_Mortality_2022_May.png

    They have spotted this in UK and are conducting a thorough investigation into the cause. As these are not due to covid, one hypothesis is that this is due to a lack of care (no access or delayed access to healthcare). Another is that it is to do with the vaccines as they seem to be thinking that time intervals (12-14 weeks) between the vaccine rollouts in various cohorts correlate with excess deaths in those cohorts would suggest that. All vaccinated cohorts appear to be affected. Very strange.

    Here in Ireland we have had +19% and +13% excess deaths over the last two months. Surely that cannot be due to covid at this point.

    ”Where’s the revolution? Come on, people you’re letting me down!”



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,296 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Not that this is anything to do with this topic, but there is no benefit for children to be vaccinated against covid, unless they are in a high risk category, and medical professionals trying to castigate parents for not doing so, as you are doing in that post, is having the opposite of the intended effect and turning parents off vaccines completely. Public health authorities and their strong arm approach of mandates and vaccine passports for a vaccine with a higher rate of side effects than usual and that doesn't even stop transmission is entirely to blame for this so maybe it is public health authorities who should be asking themselves the questions?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,598 ✭✭✭jackboy


    More and more parents were refusing to vaccinate their children long before covid. The vaccines causes autism lie really accelerated that pattern. I found that it was the highly educated middle classes that really turned against vaccines. The same sorts of people who think acupuncture and homeopathy are real treatments.

    Trying to push the covid vaccine on children was a terrible idea, especially as it raged through the schools and pretty much every child in Ireland was exposed with extremely low effects on the healthy.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,909 Mod ✭✭✭✭shesty


    I don't think I agree with your first statement there.

    But what I will say is that I know plenty of parents who are well educated professionals, so-called middle class, who are not running to vaccinate their kids for covid.These are kids who are fully vaccinated otherwise - in many cases beyond the normal, with parents having paid extra to get Meningitis and Chicken pox vaccines.The parents themselves have 3 covid vaccines - but they are very wary of vaccinating their kids for covid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭72sheep


    From quite early on, it was clear the effects of lockdown would outdo Covid. This is especially so in Ireland seeing as we were so "trusting" that our "Covid deaths" were minimal. (For your reward lickle boys and girls, give yourselves a well-earned round of applause and go wave flags at a parade.) 

    Years ago we all heard about that study that showed it was impossible to flatter someone too much. Now we have a study at mammoth scale that shows you cannot scare people too much; they just get more and more and more obediently docile. However, with so much obvious care in abundance, what could possibly go wrong ;-)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,969 ✭✭✭appledrop


    Yep we didnt get our son vaccinated and we are certainly not anti vaccine as he has all his childhood vaccines.

    The whole point of traditional vaccine is to stop you getting it. This is what all childhood vaccines do.

    However Covid vaccine does not do this and Covid doesn't usually have a serious effect on children, so why would you give them a vaccine that we know hardly anything about that could cause side effects?

    I can't understand it.

    The last straw for me was the push to now also give your child the flu vaccine.

    Are they for real. Are people going to get their healthy children vaccinated every year against the flu which was never done before until they are 18?

    No wonder we have this strange variant of hepatitis. Kids need to build up their immune system against common colds and flu.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,969 ✭✭✭appledrop


    Walus, I can't believe those stats about the excess deaths. That's shocking, I wonder will we ever know is it due to neglect of people's health during Covid, cancers that were undiagnosed etc.

    That's before we even look at the mental health problems which are just off the scale. It's just so sad.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭walus


    Seeing the excess deaths go up post pandemic is something that I actually expected to happen and kept my radar on for information related to it. My hypothesis at the beginning of lockdown(s) was that those who we protected by isolating everyone i.e. old and frail would sadly die shortly after opening the country due to natural causes anyway. The lockdowns would merely add a few months to their lives at best, I thought. In addition to that I was fairly certain that the lockdowns themselves would cause so called secondary deaths that over time would dwarf the covid deaths. This I thought would be due to lack of diagnosis and medical care as well as stress and mental health issues. I did not take the adverse effects of vaccines into account at that time though. I thought that because they would be safe enough and administered only to those who were vulnerable and really needed them, and consequently the event of death caused by the vaccine would be so rare that it would not affect in any meaningful way the excess deaths.

    What I don’t understand is that at least in some of the countries excess deaths come and go in waves, like covid. It would be natural to link them with the virus of course. However, in UK at least they looked into their numbers to discover that there are excess deaths on top of covid deaths, which would suggest there are other causes for those. Same must be true for other countries as omicron is far less dangerous and causes much fewer deaths now. If that is the case what causes those deaths? And then you have other countries, Sweden for example who have not had excess deaths to mention since Feb 2021 - the numbers are very much in line with what they would have expected -single digit fluctuations. Again the question is - why?

    The point i was making from the beginning was that the policy should be aimed at protecting lives with a long term period in mind (at least 2-3 years). I believed back in March 2020 that in terms of numbers of lives saved it should be focused not so much how well we do short term but how we do overall long term, even much beyond the pandemic. Unfortunately flattening the curve and lockdowns are not the way to achieve that if we agree that we are considering all deaths and not just covid deaths.

    There is much more questions than answers wrt this issue still and I only started researching this. It may take months before we know more. The true winner here will be a country and a government who lost the fewest of its citizens to covid as well as policies that were implemented to deal with over at least 5 year period (possibly 10 years) since the start of the pandemic.

    Post edited by walus on

    ”Where’s the revolution? Come on, people you’re letting me down!”



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,751 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    I only mention it because someone else ( 2 posts above mine !) brought up the fact that regular immunisations had dropped off and that the reason why they said was lockdowns which is an obviously spurious comment .

    There has in fact been a drop off but not due to that but as I stated , due to parental distrust engendered by the amount of Covid antivax sentiment .

    And yes that poster bringing that subject up is off topic , and I replied .

    I agree with you on the vaccines for children . It is now thought only necessary for children at severe risk from Covid or suffering from underlying conditions , and instances of Mis- C have reduced considerably since Omicron.

    This was not the case for the previous strains and the benefits of the vaccines outweighed the risks, as did the mitigation measures employed at the time . The two scenarios are not comparable at all ,CS .

    .



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,751 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    I actually agree with your first line ....but where did I castigate any parent for not vaccinating?

    You are off on a misguided rant there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,751 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Can I say while I agree with most of what you say for the point of clarity in the context of the subject of the thread ? ...

    Covid vaccines have NOT been found in any way connected to the cases of childhood hepatitis of unknown origin .



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,909 Mod ✭✭✭✭shesty


    No @Goldengirl .No link at all.But the hesitancy in getting kids vaccinated was there long before the hepatitis thing raised its head.Most people we discuss this with wouldn't mention hepatitis at all, wouldn't view it as having a link to the vaccines.

    I think there is fairly indisputable evidence that it isn't anyway, as most of the kids who had hepatitis had not been vaccinated, if I remember correctly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,969 ✭✭✭appledrop


    Now here's a mad one but have any of these children had the flu vaccine?

    Maybe they are looking in wrong place and linking it all to Covid no healthy kids were every vaccinated against flu( unless at risk) yet since Covid they want them all to get it.





  • Hepatitis (ie inflammation of liver) can range from almost imperceptible (unless tested for) to rapid functional destruction of the organ requiring transplant. Doctors don’t generally test for underlying hepatitis unless specific symptoms arise, ie. jaundice, pale stools, as most less specific gastric symptoms, like diarrhoea & vomiting, are put down to self-limiting viral gastroenteritis. In the past viral hepatitis in children was almost always self-limiting Hepatitis A virus acquired via fecal-oral route.

    Hepatitis can be autoimmune too, in response to various triggers in a genetically susceptible individual, but it’s not overly common. One syndrome, Reye’s, occurs in children who usually have been given aspirin to treat fever during an infection, so it is no longer given to children. That is a complex metabolic derangement which affects liver, brain cells and other systems. It is possible that this very severe hepatitis which is turning up in children may eventually be identified as a specific syndrome with ide tied triggers.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,751 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    You are questioning the flu vaccine now as a probable cause ?!

    Most of these kids have not had ordinary immunisations, never mind flu vaccines and there hasn't been a requirement for flu vaccines much through Covid as it disappeared , pretty much.

    As a matter of interest, appledrop, do you know that while healthy young children are at little risk from Covid, from what we know now , young children are at high risk from flu and many are hospitalised with it every year here normally?

    The fact that there was and is still , a poor uptake of flu vaccines in young children is down to nothing else but lack of awareness and apathy really.



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