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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,069 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Yeah that quantitative review comparing productivity of organic and conventional farming systems further backs up the finding of Sri Lanka`s Agricultural Research Institute, which was confirmed when attempted nationally in Sri Lanka, and the University of Zurich study. I would not see how any of those could be looked at as being intentionally misrepresented for some reason.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,049 ✭✭✭Mecanudo




  • Registered Users Posts: 15,069 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    You really do spout a lot of judgemental rubbish.

    I do not know who these "core climate deniers" are you are now spouting about. Posters here are asking question on what is the timeline for this change to 100% renewables and how much it will cost. Pointing out that we are just piddling in the ocean as far as climate change is concerned when the major emitters of GHG`s are doing little or nothing with one in particular just adding to the problem building coal fired plants to boost their economy providing green tech What is the sense behind us culling cattle to further put a hole in our economy and create unemployment when a country shipping meat from the far side of the world to the E.U. using slash and burn to raise these cattle are increasing their herds by 24 million. There is also the questions of energy security and non-compliance, plus the Green Party stance on an E.U recognised transitional fuel source.

    Up until your appearance nobody could give a reasoned coherent answer to any of those issue, but seemingly you can. So in your own good time.

    Still waiting, but again in your own good time, for those stats on wheat grown organically from that source you linked to that unlike other sources posted here is one that could not be called unbiased as there aim is the promotion of growing food organically. Just saying like.😀



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭dePeatrick


    Exactly my thoughts on this issue, The cure may be worse than the cause.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,069 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    That is the mean construction time for the 441 built during those 35 odd years. If you have a problem with it take it up with the publisher of that data. Even though I`m at a loss to understand why you would see it as utterly deluded for Ireland as you have no such problem with every green project as they will apparently come in on time, or even sooner, and on budget. Admittedly though for most of them you haven`t provided either a budget or a timeline so difficult to make comparisons.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,600 ✭✭✭ps200306




    Which part is opinion? That fossil fuel consumption is rising inexorably is not an opinion -- I provided a reference to the BP Statistical Review of World Energy, an authoritative source that has been used by government and industry for seventy years. That the success of renewables depends on grid-scale storage infrastructure is not my opinion -- it has been stated by all the Green advocates on here. Ireland consumed 30 TWh of electricity in 2020 (source: IEA). There have been multiple periods of up to two weeks of low wind energy over the last couple of years (source: my own observations of the Eirgrid dashboard, feel free to provide your own). Were those to be provided for from storage you would need greater than 1 TWh of storage. The entire US built about 2 GWh of battery storage last year, i.e. 0.2% of what Ireland would require.

    Furthermore, low levels of battery storage perform a very valuable function in terms of balancing grid frequency in the presence of renewables. It is common for 90% of revenues for battery storage to come from FCAS (frequency control and ancillary services) and not from selling energy as larger scale systems would have to do. (The more confused among us may think that recent additions to Ireland's battery storage are the start of something huge -- they are not; they are just taking this very sensible and lucrative slice of the FCAS market).

    At today's prices for grid-scale lithium battery systems, Ireland's storage requirement would cost $350 billion. Prices could fall by half by 2050 (though that seems pretty unlikely if the whole world competed for lithium at this scale -- that amount of lithium doesn't exist). Source: National Renewable Energy Laboratory, operated by Alliance for Sustainable Energy, LLC, for the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) 2021, https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy21osti/79236.pdf.

    So yes, it's my opinion that a third of a trillion dollars worth of battery storage is infeasible for Ireland (probably physically impossible as well, but certainly economically). How about you?

    (Footnote: I know there are battery technologies other than lithium, happy to deal with those separately).

    Post edited by ps200306 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,600 ✭✭✭ps200306





    With respect, you don't seem to understand the difference between a tax allowance, a subsidy and a strike price.

    Offshore hydrocarbon exploration has always been subject to tax allowances for exploration and development. Exploration is a risky business and private capital takes the hit if it turns out a dud. Costs are allowed against tax on future revenues. In spite of that, Corrib was a billion dollar disaster for Shell, partly because of development delays caused by protests from fringe groups. (https://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/shell-s-corrib-exit-leaves-energy-giants-up-to-2-5bn-in-the-red-1.3152789).

    Wind producers also get tax allowances for capital costs. Right now there is a case before the courts where "Big Wind" is trying to also claim grid connections as capital costs, not currently allowed against tax by the Irish Revenue (source: KPMG). You say that "a premium is paid initially to encourage companies to build out the infrastructure". What's this "initially"? Onshore wind is a mature technology: the case for subsidies might have been tenable twenty years ago, but not now. Strike prices for RESS 2 are locked in for almost two decades, up to 31 December 2039.

    But in any case, this brings us to your confusion about subsidies vs. strike prices. Ironically, this could actually bolster your case -- strike prices are not subsidies:

    The fly in the ointment is that the favourable comparison between strike prices for UK offshore wind and nuclear in that article makes the Irish situation even more bizarre. The strike price just agreed for Irish onshore wind under RESS 2 -- a fully mature technology -- is the same as the cost of the Hinckley Point nuke. And that's only the private commercial ones. The "community led" projects under RESS 2 came in 20% higher again at €116 / MWh.

    What the hell is it about this wonderful little country? Our new onshore wind is costing twice the price of UK offshore five years ago, and the same as an expensive one-off nuke. You can add the inability of the Greens to drive a good deal to their other shortcomings.

    A final point: concerns have already been raised about the likelihood that excess UK wind capacity will be practically worthless at times of high production. (Sorry, I like to provide references unlike some on here who think it's beneath them, but I'll have to dig this one out later). Maybe one to think about for those who think we'll be making loadsa money out of 30 GW of excess offshore wind on an island with c. 1 GW of interconnector capacity.

    Post edited by ps200306 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,049 ✭✭✭Mecanudo


    Apparently according to an Op Ed piece in the Journal.ie today by someone called JessicaDunne, a "general activist" and song writer, - Ireland has been experiencing a heatwave continuing for "days on end", making rail lines buckle amongst other things

    But when the heatwaves continue for days on end, we must begin to go about our lives and jobs with this oppressive heat. We begin to realise how ill-suited our little island is to this weather, how the rivers run low and rail lines buckle

    Now I don't know where Jessica is living in Ireland but it must be Tír na nÓg or somewhere because I've searched high and low for reports from Met Eireann that we've had a heatwave (Met Eireann's working definition of a heatwave is five consecutive days or more with maximum temperature > 25 °C) or indeed reports of rail lines buckling. Do they have railway lines in Hy-Brasil?

    How the hell does stuff like this even get published? Its little wonder that we have screamers in the green party looking to effectively close down the country if this is the level of fantasy being published

    One of the comments I think hit the piece on the head

    Jessica, here’s a napkin for you.Dry your eyes!We have to stop referring to 2 consecutive days in the 20s as a heatwave. No one else on the planet does, and its frankly embarrassing.

    Yes I know we have had a recent hot spell and the UK has experienced a heatwave there, but for chrises sake let's not run away with ourselves and start exaggerating. Once upon a time there used to be influencers on social media, influencing things, now we have 'activists' writing fantasy fluff about the weather. God help us.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,934 ✭✭✭Shoog


    If you want a rapid roll out of renewables, as the government does, you continue paying subsidies beyond the point where they are absolutely necessary. The problem the Irish wind energy sector has faced for the last 20years is that the ESB has hobbled their expansion by only allowing a very limited number of grid connections on a competitive auction basis. A unrealised negative consequence of this model is that much of the wind has been installed in suboptimal locations where it was convenient for the ESB to offer connections - not in the best wind locations. Ireland after a promising start has fallen way behind on what it set out to achieve and is now in the expensive business of playing catch up to meet obligations it knew it had over a decade ago. This is why the government has committed to unreasonably high supports. if the government had have put more supports into grid upgrades and applied more pressure on the ESB it would be very likely that wind would not need these levels of support as all the pent up demand for wind projects from the wind industry would have been met.

    I am not remotely convinced that the government has learned its lesson since it is still allowing the ESB to bottleneck the whole process with its market based auction model.

    And the final strike price is part of the bidding process so not fixed at the high rates you quote.

    As is typical of the Irish state - it has made a strategic hash of it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭Luxembourgo


    Any reason we can't just ban private jets?

    Getting the plebs to massively alter their life before doing this seems pretty silly and elitist.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,049 ✭✭✭Mecanudo


    I'm not sure that the latest development with regard to the UK gas exports to other countries has been already detailed. The latest is the UK has plans to cut the supply of gas to EU pipelines if the Russia crisis intensifies

    "A cut off of the so called interconnector pipelines would be among the early measures under the UK emergency gas plan, which could be triggered by the national grid if supplies fall short in the coming months "

    No reason to believe Ireland will be a special case where the UK needs its own gas resources in the event of domestic shortages. And all the more reason why we need to develop our own independent supplies and reserves of natural gas and LNG to ensure the countries requirements for electricity generation regardless of the greens insistence otherwise

    Report from the 29 June 2022




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,600 ✭✭✭ps200306



    "If you want a rapid roll out of renewables, as the government does, you continue paying subsidies beyond the point where they are absolutely necessary."

    Ok gotcha. So we are paying an unseemly rate because of the government's unseemly haste to save 0.0°C of warming. Just a timid suggestion: should we look at a more appropriate pace of rollout to save us loads of money without impacting those savings of 0.0°C of warming?

    "The problem the Irish wind energy sector has faced for the last 20years is that the ESB has hobbled their expansion by only allowing a very limited number of grid connections on a competitive auction basis. A unrealised negative consequence of this model is that much of the wind has been installed in suboptimal locations where it was convenient for the ESB to offer connections - not in the best wind locations."

    So we are now paying more to get less. Nice.

    "Ireland after a promising start has fallen way behind on what it set out to achieve and is now in the expensive business of playing catch up to meet obligations it knew it had over a decade ago. This is why the government has committed to unreasonably high supports."

    So why did Eamon Ryan pressure the EU to increase the targets for renewables penetration by 2030? A less fanatical approach would have saved money without affecting climate change. And now in an era when Germany and others are burning more coal, building LNG import facilities and scouring the world for hydrocarbons to buy, Ryan is banning LNG imports, scuppering local exploration (which would save CO2 emissions) and paying more for renewables than the UK is paying for nuclear! You couldn't make it up.

    Does the phrase "batshit crazy" strike a chord with you at all???

    "And the final strike price is part of the bidding process so not fixed at the high rates you quote."

    Uh, the price I quoted is from the completed RESS 2 auction in May of this year. I cited the average strike price of €97/MWh for commercial projects and €116/MWh for community led projects. Strike prices apply for the RESS 2 Support Period which lasts until 2040. Those are the final strike prices.

    "As is typical of the Irish state - it has made a strategic hash of it."

    No, it has made a strategic hash of it and it continues to dig a bigger hole for itself, presumably so Ryan can keep polishing the green halo he keeps on the mantelpiece of his expensive home with the luxury eco fit-out.

    Barbs aside, you do realise this is serious, serious stuff? It affects the competitiveness of the economy, the large number of people in energy poverty, and exchequer ability to pay for health and social welfare. Also, most of this stuff is currently going under the radar -- what's going to happen when the public wake up and realise they are getting screwed by yet another case of state ineptitude?

    Post edited by ps200306 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭NSAman




  • Registered Users Posts: 10,376 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    lol!! Oh I’ve heard it all now!

    You establishing if a poster is avoiding answering questions?!

    Wow.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,204 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    They are massively trying to decouple the use of physical resources and economic activity. The end result being you will slave away your whole life for feck all. Instead of a house you'll be able to rent a shoebox apartment, instead of a car you'll get the occasional use of a mobility service but they still want people to show up to work their whole lives. No car and no smartphone doesnt sound so terrible if you can spend your whole life in a cabin in the woods by a nice lake with all your friends smoking weed but they are desperate to prevent that too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    They’ll eventually decay and turn into methane🫠



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,569 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    ‘Farms need upgrade of electricity lines to maximise solar power exports to grid’

    Extensive farming to qualify as two Eco-Schemes

    It's not only random energy generators who like subsidy farming, it's extended to gas generators, farmers have a long history milking the system, now being paid to not produce food, with 3 phase the Tesla drivers from the city will be able to rapid charge their cars for their jaunt to their holiday homes heated with heat exchangers (invest in Coffee people will be standing around more often). Who's paying for this green utopia infrastructure (electricity consumers) and can it be done? Who wants more overhead high voltage lines - South Dublin needs them. How much will the solar Duck curve cost to manage? Unreliable power sources need backup generation on the grid, peak power consumption in Ireland occurs outside hours when solar is at it's maximum which is seasonally variant, this increase in demand means we will need more gas generator plants, so where do we get the gas from?

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    The monthly take from big oil and gas.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    More climate scientists are beginning to link climate change with human extinction in the peer reviewed literature

    https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2108146119

    Post edited by Akrasia on


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    In the future there will be no 'Peak' demand.

    If electricity supply is so unreliable as you predict it will be, and if everyone has smart meters (which they will have) and electricity is priced according to real time demand (which is already happening on smart meter plans) then suddenly, it becomes completely sensible to charge a battery using off peak power, and run off that battery during the peak when electricity is expensive.

    Flattening out the demand curve allows infrastrucure to be much much more efficient

    If we could do the same thing with roads, we would never have a traffic jam again, and we wouldn't need to have such wide motorways.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Again let's not forget that peer review just means that the study and its methodology has been reviewed and is not nonsense, not that its conclusions are necessarily correct. Not entirely sure what purpose such things serve anyway especially as they are absolute worst case scenarios. COVID modelling predictions in the early days were of such ilk and wildly wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,049 ✭✭✭Mecanudo


    Not too sure what that has got to do with green policies destroying this country.

    But anyway going through that particular longwinded and doom laden academic paper - the general gist seems to be 'we've really don't know what the future is but hey if you give us some more money to keep us in academia, then that would be great'.

    "We suggest that it is time to seriously scrutinize the best way to expand our research horizons to cover this field. The proposed “Climate Endgame” research agenda provides one way to navigate this under-studied area"

    I'm fairly certain that at least a few of the authors of that particular academic paper cannot be deemed to be "climate scientists" with a number of academics listed from anthropology, humanities and life sciences

    Interestingly enough I did however notice one of the main academic climate contributiors listed is one of Greta Thunberg climate advisors namely Johan Rockström  of the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research in Germany. The same Johan Rockström and Potsdam Institute for Climate research who were tied up with the now thoroughly debunked 'planetary health diet" promotion pushed by big food interests. Unfortunately the issues of climate change means that for some there are all too evident financial opportunities whether academic or otherwise.




  • Registered Users Posts: 12,962 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    Eirgrid are responsible for the transmission network, not the ESB. On that note, there was an ambitious project proposed a number of years back called Grid West looking to install a 400kV corridor along the west coast for the exact reasons you've outlined and allow wind farms connect to a string grid. Unfortunately, the NIMBYs came out in force and the project was binned.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Well, if there's a 20% chance that we can become committed to exceeding 4.5c of warming by 2050-2070, which puts the future of our species at significant risk then this would justify much higher carbon taxes, much faster investment in renewable and carbon free infrastructure, and much more political capital expended to put climate change on the very top of the global priorities list



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,376 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Grand.

    How much will it cost me to install a battery?



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    You don't know what relevance this kind of study has to Ireland? The severity of the threat posed by climate change has massive implications for what 'green policies' Ireland will need to enact. Resources will need to be allocated to Mitigate and adapt. We will need to have contingencies in place. Food stockpiles, emergency shelters, distribution shelters, plans to deal with influxes in migrants from abroad, plans to deal with increased conflict, plans to deal with energy insecurity and resource shortages etc





  • Registered Users Posts: 3,044 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    You need to change your fantasy picture. Probably old stock from global warming scare campaign. In case you are not in the loop it is "climate change" or "climate catastrophe" now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,069 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    "Lots of little maybes and what ifs all lined up in a row. And if you put your mind to following some of them that never came about, you`ll get lost and not find your way back to the way it really is". Author Mindy McGinnis

    There is no "if" of renewables being unreliable. We know how unreliable they are from their low input for three extended periods in the last year alone which no battery storage would have compensated for. That is the way it really is, yet you are advocating throwing more good money after bad without any idea of how much based on nothing other than ifs and maybes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    You won't necessarily need to install a battery in your home. You may want one if you have a solar installation, but there are 2.5GW of grid scale batteries being installed commercially across between last year and this year mostly by private companies entering the market for grid services. They will be used to 'peak shave' and maintain frequency. People who have solar with battery installations at home can set up their system to use as little power as possible during the peak tines. This is already built into the next generation hot water systems, that heat water from the grid, but only when prices are cheap like this one https://tepeo.com/

    Large Industrial and commercial plants with heavy electricity demand will replace their diesel (or supplement) backup generators with BESS which they can use to 'energy shift' (avail of cheaper off peak electricity by storing it for use during peak hours) if there are large swings in electricity prices

    In a grid powered by mostly renewable power, there will be many times when more electricity is generated than we need at that time, so commercial grid servicing will be able to buy this power very cheaply and then sell it back when supply is lower than demand.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,376 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    But if I don’t have a battery I presume I will be paying high electricity prices?



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