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Covid vaccines - thread banned users in First Post

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    #9392
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119416940#Comment_119416940

    That's not evidence that the vaccines are definitely not a contributing factor of the excess mortality.

    That's a fact check of a specific claim that the vaccines definitely cause the mortality, with the verdict:

    Misleading. There is no evidence that there was a 84% increase in excess deaths for people aged between 25 and 44 due to COVID-19 vaccines, as claimed in a video on social media. CDC data shows excess deaths related to COVID-19, not COVID-19 vaccines. 




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    #9393
    EyesClosed
    Registered Users Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭EyesClosed


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417033#Comment_119417033

    I still think its dragons... You should keep an open mind



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    #9394
    Big Bag of Chips
    Administrators Posts: 14,033 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Big Bag of Chips


    @EyesClosed enough of the dragon talk. Totally irrelevant in this discussion.

    Post edited by Big Bag of Chips on


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    #9395
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,596 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417033#Comment_119417033

    You asked for "any evidence proving vaccines have nothing to do with excess mortality"


    I provided some evidence.

    QED



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    #9396
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417145#Comment_119417145

    You provided evidence of Reuters quoting some experts stating that the cause is unknown. That is not evidence proving the cause is not vaccines.



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    #9397
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,236 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417166#Comment_119417166

    Can you quote any experts who believe that the cause is vaccines?


    You're also asking for a complete nonsense here. Your asking people to prove a negative. While completely ignoring the fact you've no evidence to support the idea. That's completely illogical as demonstrated by Eyeclosed example of the deaths being caused by dragons until you can prove otherwise.



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    #9398
    Big Bag of Chips
    Administrators Posts: 14,033 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Big Bag of Chips


    @King Mob there's already been a warning to drop the dragon nonsense.



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    #9399
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,988 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe



    Two years in with everyone vaccinated, I have no idea why this subject is still on a conspiracy theory forum with no conspiracies being presented. It makes as much sense as people discussing cancer treatment here.



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    #9400
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,236 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417575#Comment_119417575

    Well the conspiracy theory has swung all the way back to "its killing people and its being covered up".



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    #9401
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,526 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    I’ve been reading medical studies/reports for over 30 yrs, Ive never read an article where the study was used as proof to support a cause of death which is not referenced in the study. If the article did, the nut job writing the article could point to any cause of death and say as it wasn’t ruled out in the study, it might be the cause of the increased mortality rate. The number of potential reasons would be wide and varied, to focus on the vaccine would certainly be a unique perspective.



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    #9402
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,526 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose



    You're also asking for a complete nonsense here. Your asking people to prove a negative. 

    Really, this is standard antivaxxer nonsense: asking to prove a negative. And, its the anti-vaxxer asking someone else to prove their negative, always. What they miss is, they're asserting a positive - "vaccines cause X" and when asked to prove it, state "You can't prove they don't." Which is logical nonsense.



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    #9403
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,236 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417865#Comment_119417865

    "You can't prove they don't cause these deaths, therefore it's possible they caused them. Therefore they definitely did cause them."

    *ignores the fact that this thread has shown conclusively that there's nothing to support the idea that the vaccine is any more dangerous than any other medicine.*


    As before, there's nothing at all to connect those Spanish deaths to the vaccine, it's just the usual twitter grifters making the implication knowing that their audience will eat it up.



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    #9404
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417865#Comment_119417865

    I am not "asserting a positive" - I am saying nobody knows what the cause of excess mortality is.

    In the absence of a definitive explanation of why there is a consistent trend of excess mortality, it seems plausible to me that the vaccines could be a contributing factor.

    This plausibility is based on the assumption that the excess mortality must be down to something significant that has happened over the past 12 months. The vaccine roll out is indeed something significant that has happened over past 12 months. Thus, in the absence of it being definitively ruled out as a contributing factor, it remains a plausible possibility.

    What is illogical about that?



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    #9405
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417774#Comment_119417774

    Ive never read an article where the study was used as proof to support a cause of death which is not referenced in the study

    Are you referring to an article/study cited here? If so which one?



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    #9406
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,526 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419023#Comment_119419023

    I am indeed referring to you claiming the Spanish report linked, in any way supports your assertion that the deaths are linked to vaccines. While I admit dragon deaths are an unlikely cause, there could be a plethora of reasons for the increased mortality rate which have nothing to do with Covid/vaccines.

    It really is a unique perspective to take a report like that, and then claim that because it doesn’t rule out vaccines as a contributing factor, it must therefore be a contributing factor. That type of illogical thinking could be applied to any cause not explicitly ruled out, maybe they were all murdered, because it wasn’t specifically excluded as an explanation.



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    #9407
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419072#Comment_119419072

    I didn't say it supports my view. I said the whole point of the article is nobody knows. The expert quoted in the article came up with five plausible hypotheses, all of which he says are unlikely. i.e he does not know.

    While I admit dragon deaths are an unlikely cause, there could be a plethora of reasons for the increased mortality rate which have nothing to do with Covid/vaccines.

    Are you prepared to give an example of the plethora of reasons for the increased mortality rate?



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    #9408
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,596 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119418949#Comment_119418949

    Something significant that had happened??

    How about a worldwide pandemic resulting in multiple lockdowns.

    Have you any idea what the fall out from this would be? Medical procedures and checks not done. People's health deteriorated beyond normal levels.

    Plus a very significant heat wave in central Spain and the associated fall out from that. Emergency services and first responders stretched beyond capacity, leading again to people's health being effected.

    There is no conspiracy here. It's obvious common sense. Just cause the reasons haven't been recorded yet doesn't mean there's some huge singular "unknown" source that's killing people in such significant numbers.

    That is in your head only, because you are a vaccine denier.



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    #9409
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,526 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419125#Comment_119419125

    Using your logic, anything that isn’t mentioned in the report would be on a list of possible causes of death. Pick any non-Covid cause of death you want, if you want to include vaccines as a cause, then you also have to include the non-Covid cause you picked.



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    #9410
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419154#Comment_119419154

    But that's silly to believe anything that isn't mentioned in the report as a possible cause, and I haven't said that.

    You acknowledged that yourself, some are more likely than others. I just wondered if in saying there could be a plethora of reasons, there was one or some you thought to be more likely than others.

    Are you saying that you think vaccines are definitely not a contributing factor to the trend in excess mortality?



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    #9411
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419135#Comment_119419135

    Have you any idea what the fall out from this would be? Medical procedures and checks not done. People's health deteriorated beyond normal levels.

    Interestingly the expert quoted in the EL PAIS article does not have much confidence in this theory.



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    #9412
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,596 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    It is easy to believe the excess mortality is not caused by the vaccines, because there is ZERO evidence the vaccines are causing any significant mortality numbers. It's a proven fact that they are safer than most medicines



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    #9413
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,097 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419196#Comment_119419196

    What makes you think that vaccines have only caused an issue in Spain?



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    #9414
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419234#Comment_119419234

    Nothing. No idea where you got the impression I think that.



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    #9415
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,596 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419217#Comment_119419217

    I suggest you read the article again.


    "The exact causes cannot be known or attributed to a single specific reason. The heat of these weeks, the covid, the consequences of the pandemic [there are indirect ones of many kinds, such as socio-health, less access to the health system due to healthcare difficulties or fear, the isolation that many older people have suffered], can influence the fragility of vulnerable people in relation to all of the above. These are estimates that must be handled with caution, consolidate data and study in the future”, these sources point out."

    You are trying to see something that is clearly and obviously not there.

    You are doing this because you are biased against the vaccine and think there is some global conspiracy here (yet you wont come out directly and state this). Instead you suggest implicit non corporeal ethereal reasons for which you have ZERO evidence, and you try to argue that the lack of evidence against your ethereal suggesting is proof of plausibility. That's illogical and fantastical and not surprising from a vaccine denier.



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    #9416
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419284#Comment_119419284

    I read the article again and found the bit that the expert quoted does not have much confidence in the theory:

    Peiró's second hypothesis is one that is also pointed out by the sources consulted in the ISCIII: there are people who die due to the long lack of control in the management of chronic pathologies and the low detection of cancer in the last two years. “Again I find it difficult to fit in. On the one hand, I would expect to see more hospital admissions for decompensated diabetes, heart failure, and other classic chronic diseases. And the colleagues I ask tell me that they are not seeing this. They do say that there are more advanced cancers, but here the latency to death should be longer. It might explain some, but not all, of the excess mortality. And it should be accompanied by an uptick in emergency room hospitalizations due to chronic ailments,” he notes.



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    #9417
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,596 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419305#Comment_119419305

    First off one person "asking colleagues" isn't a very scientific way of assessing situation. The article clearly states that more in-depth data analysis must be done.

    It also states there isn't one single reason for the excess.

    So when perio says that this may account for some and not all excess, he's correct.


    No one is suggesting there's one reason for this. What we're suggesting is there's a myriad of reasons, and that the vaccine isn't in any way a significant player in this



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    #9418
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 30,179 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419305#Comment_119419305

    Why didn't you include the rest of his comments???

    * The third and fourth hypotheses have to do with the fact that the MoMo is not measuring the excesses well. “They are models and they are probably not built for such a long-lasting heat wave,” says the epidemiologist, who also believes that he could perhaps be underestimating mortality in general, beyond temperatures. “But I checked the model and it seemed correct. I don't know if it could have any effect, but not that much”, he assures.

    * The fifth hypothesis, which is perhaps the most plausible for him, is a mixture of all the previous ones. “But in two years a lot of people have died. Sick people, very old people who had died (from non-covid causes) in the months following their death from covid. The so-called harvest effect (the excess mortality in one season advances the deaths of the next) should mean that at this point we have a defect (not an excess) of mortality, which further complicates the interpretation”, adds Peiró. In his opinion, "the sensible thing to do" would be to advance the coding and analysis of mortality by cause to try to verify what is happening, if anything, because "at this time, mortality becomes relevant data for decision-making ”.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #9419
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,097 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419281#Comment_119419281

    That the entire subject of the report is to do with excess deaths in Spain which haven't been seen elsewhere.



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    #9420
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,236 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419376#Comment_119419376

    The same reason the vaccine only seemed to be making news readers and sports people keel over it seems.



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    #9421
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419368#Comment_119419368

    I've already referenced the fact that he doesn't have much confidence in any of the five hypotheses he offers. From the comments you quoted:

    * The third and fourth hypotheses have to do with the fact that the MoMo is not measuring the excesses well. “They are models and they are probably not built for such a long-lasting heat wave,” says the epidemiologist, who also believes that he could perhaps be underestimating mortality in general, beyond temperatures. “But I checked the model and it seemed correct. I don't know if it could have any effect, but not that much”, he assures.

    * The fifth hypothesis, which is perhaps the most plausible for him, is a mixture of all the previous ones. “But in two years a lot of people have died. Sick people, very old people who had died (from non-covid causes) in the months following their death from covid. The so-called harvest effect (the excess mortality in one season advances the deaths of the next) should mean that at this point we have a defect (not an excess) of mortality, which further complicates the interpretation”, adds Peiró. In his opinion, "the sensible thing to do" would be to advance the coding and analysis of mortality by cause to try to verify what is happening, if anything, because "at this time, mortality becomes relevant data for decision-making ”.

    Perhaps the most plausible, but he qualifies that by pointing out we should be seeing less deaths not more.

    It's a mystery, which is why the only thing he says with confidence is that they need to "advance the coding and analysis of mortality by cause to try to verify what is happening, if anything, because "at this time, mortality becomes relevant data for decision-making ”.



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