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Hurling- what’s gone wrong and where do we go from here.

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 69 ✭✭CaboRoig


    Bit of a strange one here. Coming from a more gaelic football than hurling background. I've always thought the throw ins to start both halves in hurling are particularly messy. Lads elbowing and shouldering and the ref taking backward steps to avoid getting a clatter! Is there a reason that the ref couldn't throw the ball upwards (as in football)? Would it cut out that stuff at the start of each half?

    I'm probably way out of line on this one but awaiting replies!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 908 ✭✭✭munsterdevil


    It wouldn't cut it out, and it would lead to someone's head being taken off.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,818 ✭✭✭Eoinbmw


    I'd love to see that lol!

    Only other option is toss a coin and winner/loser pucks out!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭crossman47




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 908 ✭✭✭munsterdevil


    They actually trialled the game start and second half puck out in the league around 10 years ago!



  • Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭Corcaigh84


    And that's totally fine. Anything to stop throwball. Handpass from the opposite hand only seems to be the simplest solution. I don't see the GAA even trialling this for another year or two at least.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 908 ✭✭✭munsterdevil


    "Handpass from the opposite hand only seems to be the simplest solution"

    How would that work?



  • Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭Corcaigh84



    Here's a kid doing it from the 00:30 second mark with his off hand. The other way is if you're right handed and soloing for example, handpass it with your left no problem.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 908 ✭✭✭munsterdevil


    That's fine standing up and at some levels. Full throttle intercounty is a different story.

    PS thanks for the video, if I tried that underage I'd have been killed 😂



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  • Registered Users Posts: 511 ✭✭✭Davys Fits


    Whats your point? Are you saying because its too difficult for players we should continue with the throws? At least its clear-cut, there's no ambiguity and the refs can easily see the pass.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 908 ✭✭✭munsterdevil




  • Registered Users Posts: 511 ✭✭✭Davys Fits


    I asked you if thats what you were saying. So what was your point then?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 908 ✭✭✭munsterdevil


    My point was that it is unworkable to be brought into hurling. All well and good showing a young fellow doing it standing up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 511 ✭✭✭Davys Fits


    Why not? This kind of handpasses is already in the game but not as common as the thrown type pass. There is also the option of passing from the hurley.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 908 ✭✭✭munsterdevil


    Well, the stick pass occurs a lot, at least in recent years, but impractical in some cases like very close range.

    By all means, the striking from the opposite hand could be trialled in the league, but I don't think it would be adapted.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Having seen it now, I can safely say that its as unnecessary and stupid as it seemed in writing. Just make lads recieve handpasses with the hurl before they can touch the sliotar with their hand



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 195 ✭✭Deiselurker


    Are there any plans to bring in the black card and penalty for cynical fouls in club hurling? I've seen a few examples in the recent Ballygunner games where players have dragged an opponent down outside the 21 happy to take the yellow card to prevent a goalscoring chance.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    While I don't necessarily agree with the suggestion why do you regard it as stupid? It is approaching the problem from the point of view of ensuring that the handpass is executed correctly and a side effect may be reduced handpasses per game as players may get bottled up easier trying to execute such a handpass

    Your suggestion would likely reduce the use of the handpass (a good thing IMO) but it does nothing to address illegal handpassing when handpasses do occur. Also, in my opinion, it would entail a much more significant change to the fundamentals of the game than the alternate hand handpass shown above

    No matter what change that would be introduced (if any) it is likely that eventually we would realise that it has inadvertently lead to other problems



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,168 ✭✭✭zetecescort


    No, only manly men play hurling and don't engage in such cynical play more associated with football



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,170 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Thats because counties like Kerry enter their senior clubs in the Intermediate championship



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,170 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    That sounds interesting all right. As long as refs came down hard on obstruction of the hurley it could be really interesting and nice looking from a skills point of view



  • Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭Corcaigh84


    The whole point of the suggestion in the vid I linked above is to make the handpass more difficult. Requiring the receiving player to touch the ball with the stick first is just a cop-out, because it is extremely simple to execute compared to an 'off-hand' pass.

    It absolutely wouldn't deter lads barging into the challenge when they know the quick offload is still legal as it currently stands.

    Changing the rule would both a) deter players from handpassing as much and b) lead to more possession turnovers which makes for more exciting games (in my opinion, of course).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,170 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Opposite hand hand pass is a terrible idea that will just promote cynical play. The one hand pass is often the only option when players are being crowded and dragged about.

    You might as well ban hand passing as having that nonsense



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Not being able to take the ball to hand at all if you received a handpass would be more interesting (and is what I originally thought Dyr was referring to), although again it would do little to prevent the widespread throwing of the ball we see today



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,474 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    I was watching a league game last year.. a wet night down in Cork against Tipp.

    Jason Forde pointed a free from his own 45 underneath the stand.

    Ah. Here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,170 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Only a massive clampdown from the refs will ever stop cheating of any kind. Change the hand pass and people will just find a new way to cheat.

    Even if it meant a whole league of frees i'de like to see the throw clamped down on



  • Registered Users Posts: 511 ✭✭✭Davys Fits


    20 years or more ago there was very little handpassing and very little spare hand fouling. You defended with the hurl, hooking blocking but you saw very little spare hand around the body tackles like you see now. The cheap handpass has since become a huge part of the game and defending it has come down to cheap defense, using the spare hand. Its very rare to see a player block or hook a handpass. So the hand around the player has become the defense for the handpass. Its a chicken and egg frenzy and an ugly one. I would much rather watch a game full of stop/start skill and intent than a lazy free flowing sling fest of handpasses and spare hands.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,814 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    Again, I think the change in the ball's composition and the size of the bas has been a major factor. Possession always trumps territory now, there's no point in playing for territory now when the scoring zone is so big. It has led to a great increase in the amount of handpassing.

    The GAA should be very wary of disillusionment among the public. For all the hype about the quality of hurling, it's fairly clear the modern spectacle isn't grabbing people like it used to. These figures from RTE bear it out, one hurling match in the top 30 most watched programmes. An episode of Ireland's Fittest Family had more of an audience than either All Ireland semi final or the Munster final.


    I don't really see that turning around unless there are changes made by the GAA. The ball is going out of play every minute, huge amount of restarts, that needs to change. Time to take a serious look at the composition of the ball and the size of the bas.


    The media also have to play a role, they need to stop saying average games/players are fantastic, just be honest about what's going on.




  • Registered Users Posts: 511 ✭✭✭Davys Fits


    A piece today in the indo by Dermot Crowe about the suggestion of allowing 4 points instead of 3 for a goal in hurling to reduce the number of points per game. Thankfully Darach Honan added some sense to the debate suggesting we should first fix the issues already in the game, like the illegal thrown handpass and the steps. Everything Darach said has been debated on this thread. Well done Darach, couldn't agree more.


    https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/with-long-range-point-scoring-now-commonplace-in-hurling-is-there-a-case-for-raising-the-green-flag-value-to-four-41317321.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,424 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    When you see the **** show at the Tyrone v armagh game you realise they're sweet FA wrong with hurling



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭shockframe


    The game in Armagh was reasonably enjoyable outside of that few minutes.

    As usual though people will go overboard highlighting the scuffle and completely ignoring the good play.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,814 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    This is disappointing, the ball isn’t being adjusted despite the distance it travels now. I thought there was a good chance something go would be done.



  • Registered Users Posts: 511 ✭✭✭Davys Fits


    “We put in a new minimum height for the rim, which some balls currently don’t meet, and they’re going to have to.”

    This might be positive news. I was never a fan of increasing the weight but having a minimum rim size might just add some drag. Depends really on what current balls they are talking about.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 908 ✭✭✭munsterdevil


    Apologies to the mods for resurrecting an old thread and I'm also not trying to wind up the OP, but do we still think there are problems?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,814 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    Yeah, I think so, the problems are still there. There were a few very good intercounty games this year, and with social media etc the hype over those is huge these days, absolutely huge, and I think that masks it a little bit. But basically the issues are still there unfortunately.


    The ball travels too far and that's the biggest problem as I see it, I'd love to see it changed, but don't see it happening. In many ways I think it was a richer game 15-20 years ago, because the ball travels so far possession is everything now and certain elements of the game have been lost unfortunately.

    I don't like to be negative all the time so on the plus side I think the split season is a very positive development, club hurling in the summer is great to see, intercounty was really damaging the club game for way too long.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,495 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    Turn on hurling match, see players shooting from their own 45, change channel to something else.

    Thats generally my hurling experience these days.



  • Registered Users Posts: 511 ✭✭✭Davys Fits


    Why was there up roar during the league about throws and then not a solitary free for one in the final? Throwing is rampant at club and underage and something needs to be done. The Gaa and their refs will use the league again to try to pretend they care but unless there is rule change nothing will change in the long term

    Apparently the new smart sliothar was used in the u20 c'ship. I dint notice any difference as I thought the rims were getting a tweak?

    Both the ball and the throws are fueling a ping pong battle rather then a more enduring game with more ball in play time and until that happens hurling is missing a trick.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,232 ✭✭✭TheRiverman


    Getting the ball into the hand has completely overtaken every other skill of the game. When the ball is on the ground, there are those awful scrambles to try and get it into the hand, eliminating any attempt at ground hurling, when it's in the air players always try to catch it eliminating "the clash of the ash" flicking the ball with hurley, or blocking it down. When it is in the hand it is thrown to another players hand, and thrown to another and another, which has reduced the solo run dramatically and has made a mockery of the handpass rule. It's horrendous to watch. Then it becomes even more ridiculous where 28 players can be eliminated from play by a goalkeeper taking a short puckout to a colleague in the " half back line" area who hits it over the bar or wide at the other end.

    Post edited by TheRiverman on


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    As a casual fan, yes.

    Not going to say scoring from 80 metres isn't a skill or anything but it's getting tiresome and too common now. Players go for shots from halfway any time they can.

    The rate of scoring makes a goal less valuable now too. A goal can be wiped away with 3 points in two minutes these days.

    Why risk playing a ball into the forwards for a low percentage chance of a goal when you can have a pop from halfway?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭windy shepard henderson


    the fact that john keenan didnt get another game after the excellent job he done in the munster final sums up the mentality of the people at the top in the gaa

    it was a proper game of hurling with both teams getting stuck into each other to the end it was a cracking game , people have been crying out for years now for the game to be let flow as much as possible and thats what he done , fair enough there were plenty of digs and belts going in by both sides but given the rivalry attached its probably to be expected



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,814 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    I was at the Munster Final and enjoyed it hugely. But....

    The reality is it wasn't particularly well refereed. To be honest it was a bit of a lottery as to whether frees were going to be awarded or not. Lohan spent a lot of the second half shouting at the linesman. It was quite understandable.

    As well as the current flight of the ball, attempts to let the game flow are another huge blight on hurling. Something that has made it worse is the poor implementation of the advantage rule. Very often referees opt not to blow the whistle even when there is more of an advantage to giving the free rather than letting the play continue.

    All referees need to concentrate on is implementing the rules. If frees were given every time there was a foul there'd be far more focus on proper tackling. A former Kilkenny selector wrote a very interesting piece about this earlier in the year.


    It's frustrating that it's so obvious. Crticising referees for frees being awarded after fouls are committed is insane, but quite common.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭PeggyShippen


    That was my biggest negative from this years championship. The way John Keenan was treated after referreeing the game like most people want to see it reffed. It's obvious the regulators want a less physical game and that's a crying shame.

    The Throwing and too many steps are still a huge factor. Walters solo for Kilkenny that led to a goal took the biscuit entirely. I think it was 10 steps from catch to hurley tap . Loads of throwing aswell. Limerick are the best at it especially around the backs. It's like they dare the ref to call it...its a big call ,an automatic score. Thats why to encourage enforcement they need to make the free for throwing indirect..

    Limerick are the best team again by far. The final score was flattering to kilkenny. Kyle Hayes had gone back to prevent a goal after going 5 points up. No amount of making the ball heavier (something that's badly needed) is going to prevent a Hayes or Hegarty blowing a half back line apart.

    Support 🇮🇱 Israel



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,170 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    So it seems everyone wants the ball to travel less but also hates the short hand pass game.

    They want the ball in play but hate rucks and the possession game. Jeysus we even have moaning about players catching the ball in the air.

    🤔

    The thread title is a WUM to begin with so maybe change it to "old men posting at clouds"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,170 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Was the final not reffed well ?

    Was the final not a proper game ?

    Can't really say that the ref ruined Galway vs Limerick or KK vs Clare either so what did the GAA get so wrong ?

    Are you John Keenan ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 908 ✭✭✭munsterdevil


    Exactly, hurling is evolving, we gotta move with the times.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 511 ✭✭✭Davys Fits


    The rules haven't evolved though. It seems to me that every now and then a ref decides to let it go and we get epic games like the Munster Final and people cant understand why refs dont do that all the time. Thats a very short sighted view for the betterment of the game.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,170 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Happens in every sport. Always did always will.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 908 ✭✭✭munsterdevil


    The rules have evolved, maybe slowly, but they have evoloved.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,068 ✭✭✭blackcard


    I think most people don't want to see frees being scored from 110 yards or pot shots from 90 yards. I think most people have an issue with the ball being thrown rather than the short hand pass game



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 908 ✭✭✭munsterdevil


    How do you know "most" people don't want to see scores from distance?

    Also, I think you need to look up the definition of "pot shot".



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